Trying the 52-2 outdoors

I've heard and read a lot about them not doing well outdoors but I figure I'll give it a try. Honestly I doubt it will make a huge difference for where I'm at skill wise! I think I read someone saying to go up quite a few clicks(9?) from 50 ft to 50 yards. Any recommendations or suggestions? I'll be shooting with the iron sights. My best indoor score with it last year was a 836, I'd be thrilled to get near that outdoors.

9 should get you close.  Make sure you shoot at least one string wopith factory match wadcutter at 50.

In my experience typical range winds haven't ever affected my .38 groups at 50 yds. I think too many shooters like to make excuses and blame the bullet instead of not applying the fundamentals. The wind blowing on your arm will have a larger effect than the wind on your bullet. Gusting winds are a whole different story.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:In my experience typical range winds haven't ever affected my .38 groups at 50 yds. I think too many shooters like to make excuses and blame the bullet instead of not applying the fundamentals. The wind blowing on your arm will have a larger effect than the wind on your bullet. Gusting winds are a whole different story.
Jon

Have to agree.  You can do poorly with a .45 just as easily as with the .38 at 50 yards.  FWIW, I only go up three clicks from 25 yards to 50 yards with my Clark .38 using 2.7 grains of Bullseye and a 148 HBWC.  Not sure how the clicks on the 52-2 compare to the Bo-Mar sight.  My best 50 yard slow fire is a 96-4x, so it can be done.

When mentioned about shooting in the wind and how what effects the shot - from first hand experience shooting a slow fire target with a flint lock pistol: I couldn't shoot good sighters. All over the page. Mostly right. Wind was pushing on me pretty good. We have deviders on the line for blast and cap shrapnel. Before I shot the record target a friend said "take a step or two back and hang the gun more behind the devider to keep the wind off it." Worked beautifully. shot a target I was proud of and one I needed to keep me in the running for the win. I was using a .32. The wind didn't effect to ball, it had an effect on shooter.

Don't forget you need to learn to deal with the wind when shooting outdoors.  Good training for Perry ( or Cardinal).

Wobbley wrote:Don't forget you need to learn to deal with the wind when shooting outdoors.  Good training for Perry ( or Cardinal).

+1 

I've never shot at those places but rain or shine if I decide to practice on a given day I practice. So I'm ready for what Mother Nature throws at me. Come game day you can't just say "oh well I'm gonna sit this one out". Not during the Nationals!

The M52 is a great pistol to shoot and you can achieve good scores with it.  That said, the M52 is IMHO not as easy to shoot consistently as the 1911.  Pay particular attention to your grip and follow through as a flabby grip and poor follow through will result in flyers. 

Strong opinions to follow.

AllAces wrote:The M52 is a great pistol to shoot and you can achieve good scores with it.  That said, the M52 is IMHO not as easy to shoot consistently as the 1911.  Pay particular attention to your grip and follow through as a flabby grip and poor follow through will result in flyers. 

Strong opinions to follow.

I've certainly found that to be the case at 50ft

orpheoet wrote:

AllAces wrote:The M52 is a great pistol to shoot and you can achieve good scores with it.  That said, the M52 is IMHO not as easy to shoot consistently as the 1911.  Pay particular attention to your grip and follow through as a flabby grip and poor follow through will result in flyers. 

Strong opinions to follow.

I've certainly found that to be the case at 50ft

I shot the 52-2 today and 9 clicks up was a good suggestion. My good shots were called 10's with Federal Match. 

A few questions. On my slow fires a few shots per target had irregular holes, like the bullet was tipping. Bad technique on my part? They were invariably bad shots, 7's or 6's.

I was shocked to discover that my sights were on at 25 yards with my reloads and the 9 clicks up from my 50 ft to 50 yard setting. Using 2.7 WST. Does that seem right? Unless I miscounted clicks(possible) that means no adjustment long line with factory to short line with reloads, that would be nice:)

The gun ran without a hiccup.

52's are notorius for tipping bullets at 50 yds. There's a marksman at my range that shoots one and it tips 100% of the time at both 25 & 50.
Jon

The bullets in the black are tipping too, you just can't see it. It is somewhat fundamental to the round. The HBWC is like a shotgun slug and much of the stability is from weathervaning with some help from the rifling.

I'd recommend a DEWC but they don't work much better.

It's the 52's twist rate. My 1:10 twist Douglas barrel doesn't tip 148 gr hbwc bullets. I've never not seen a 52 not tip a bullet at 50 yds regardless of the bullet. Maybe there's one out there that won't, but I haven't seen it.
Jon

Can you elaborate Jon? Is it possible to get a different barrel with a more appropriate twist? The point is somewhat moot now that there's no metallic sights option. I'll probably just shoot it indoors but I do really enjoy it.

To my knowledge there is no other barrel presently available. That's why Jerry made his own. I'm not a 52 guy so I don't know how hard it would be to sleeve a fast twist into it.
Jon

It actually may be more chamber than twist. I'm not sure the smith revolvers which had their forcing cones match conditioned tipped as much as the 52

When I shot on All Reserve pistol team, you"d never see a high master on the team shooting a 52. The guys shooting 52's were barely breaking 2600. I can't remember ever being beaten by a 52 once I made master. They're beautiful pistols, and I've shot several, but could never get one to shoot on call at long line.
Jon

I just remembered nack in 92, Jerry Wilder, Doc Young and myself set a nra national record that still stands: Int'l Centerfire shot at 25 meters. I eon the match with a 588, Wilder and Young noth had 579s. Another shooter using a 52 also had a 579. So he did well at 25 meters.
Jon

we're all holding out hope that Clark will come out with a 10 twist 52 barrel

been talked about for a while though

Way back in 1963' according to the Gil Hebard article, S&W tried twist rates as fast as 1-12 and found no improvement. Even Remington said that tipping was inherent in the ammunition. The bullet is yawing and the wobble is following the twist based on shooting through a series of target cards.

The problem is that people see the tipping in a wide shot they jerked and start blaming the gun or ammo. Then ther start to lose confidence in the gun. The 52 isn't the best at 50, but then no 38 Special is anyway. It will hold its own with factory 38 WC match ammo. And it really shines at 25.

When I was trying to make outdoor master, I was shooting a Model 52-1 for centerfire. I was using factory match ammo for matches. Some wise old masters (on the old Bullseye-L) advised me to give up the S&W. I took their advice and I think it was a factor for me making master. I don't think it had as much to do with the capability (accuracy or lack thereof) of the 52-1 as it did with eliminating a variable in the equation, thus improving my 1911 scores. In other words, the 52-1 wasn't holding me back, as much as, shooting 2X 1911 increased my skill with it. It never looked to me that the tipped bullets were less accurate, but perfect follow-through with the 52-1 was sure more crucial than with the 1911.

Would the bullets being fired from an M-52 tip any more, or less, were they to be fired in a different 38 Special gun?  

Suppose they were fired from a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman with a barrel as long, or longer, than the barrel of a M-52.  Would the results be the same?

......and if the results were the same, wouldn't that imply that the problem is the bullet, not the gun?   Maybe the flat front of the bullet, rather than an aerodynamic shape, is the biggest problem?


As to the bullet, I'm trying to compare what I know of the shape of the bullets we use, with this discussion:

https://thearmsguide.com/5341/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-bullet-shape/

Because of the hollow base the CG and CP are very close. So yaw is not damped.

mikemyers wrote:Would the bullets being fired from an M-52 tip any more, or less, were they to be fired in a different 38 Special gun?  

Suppose they were fired from a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman with a barrel as long, or longer, than the barrel of a M-52.  Would the results be the same?

......and if the results were the same, wouldn't that imply that the problem is the bullet, not the gun?   Maybe the flat front of the bullet, rather than an aerodynamic shape, is the biggest problem?


As to the bullet, I'm trying to compare what I know of the shape of the bullets we use, with this discussion:

https://thearmsguide.com/5341/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-bullet-shape/

I've seen a lot of factory match .38 SPL wadcutter holes, as the agency I worked for once used them for qualifications, as well as, PPC matches. I've also seen quite a few fired out of a model 52. People call it tipping, and that's ok, I always called it a scuff mark. It occurs pretty regularly with all kinds of handguns. It isn't nearly apparent when the shots are in the black (almost all of them are in the black on a PPC silhouette target), but noticeable out in the white. We have a tendency to blame the equipment when we throw one into orbit, but those old wadcutters can do the job, if we do ours. Just keep shooting the pistol and learn how to follow through and it and the ammo will do the job for you.

My 52-2 is probably my favorite gun. I love shooting .38 wadcutters. So much so that I just received a .38 wadcutter 1911:) Shooting the 52 outdoors was a learning experience, but I'm sticking with it.