Barrel length in a .22

I noticed that Clark sells the optics dedicated barrel for the M41 in 5.5 and 6.5 length. With sight radius not being a factor what is the advantage to a longer barrel?

Hmm, weight, balance, accuracy (maybe). There must be some relationship to powder burn rate and most accurate barrel. All of which is kind of moot since both barrels would shoot little tiny groups. I like the balance of a longer barrel.

Len

I cut a High Standard barrel down to 4" and love it. Very forgiving to shoot. When Lozoya won Nat'l s in 92 he was shooting 4" 41 barrel. Marines used to shoot long barreled 41's. Mike Curtis made his barrel. Euro guns commonly have 4" ish barrels. I don't remember who did the testing but 4" is supposed to be minimum length from what I've been told. Shorter barrels have less radial velocity to affect the bullets flight. 
Jon

This is very interesting! I never would have thought a shorter barrel would be desirable. I personally have a 5" with my dot on it and a 7" for iron sights. The 7" seems to be the one that is more comfortable and groups better. HOWEVER the rifling is MUCH sharper on the 7". Hence the search for a new barrel....I guess I'm leaning toward the 6.5". As Len suggested the balance is different and I do favor the 7".

Follow-through is more important with a longer barrel.

I think both the walther gsp/gsp expert and the pardini SPs have shorter barrels. I believe they use a gain twist rifling. The measure of just the length of the barrel minus the chamber I would guess like 3 - 3.5" max on those euro guns. I haven't measured either but just what I have noticed. Both guns are stupid accurate @ 50yds.

Pardini just announced a new Bullseye model with a longer barrel and built-in compensator.

davekp wrote:Follow-through is more important with a longer barrel.

Why do you say that?  I would think it would be, well, maybe not less important exactly, but let's say easier to manage follow-through with a longer barrel, because of the extra weight.

Some rough back-of-a-napkin calculations suggest that with 22 standard velocity ammo (which is around 1050 or 1070 fps at the muzzle, but since the bullet is not quite to the muzzle yet and is still accelerating, I used 750 fps), traveling that extra 3 inches in a longer barrel will only take about 0.00033 seconds more than a shorter barrel (give or take a tenth of a millisecond).  So I think it's difficult to argue convincingly that it's noticeably more affected by your follow-through because the bullet is in the longer barrel for a longer amount of time.

A 5" gov't 45 is much easier to shoot consistently than a 6" longslide. In a shooters arc of movement the longer the barrel the less forgiving that pistol is to shoot. It's called radial velocity: barrel is moving in radial arc from shooters shoulder. That's why when a marksman shoots a bad shot it gets worse. First from poor trigger control then from the arc of barrel movement. It's not a straight shot out of the barrel, it has negative help from sideways movent of the pistol. When I tank a shot with my 5" it will be 1 scoring ring at 50yds. With the 6" it wll be double. When I'm doing my part I shoot them equally well. But I have to work harder to shoot the 6" well. That's why 99% of HM use a 5" pistol.
Jon

Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?! 

desben wrote:Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?! 

If you look at the scores of most air pistol shooters you'll see they aren't even close to shooting groups that the pistols are capable of. 99% of AP shooters in the nation aren't breaking 550's. I bet if they had shorter barrels but kept the long sight radius, scores would go up.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:

desben wrote:Air pistol shooters routinely use 8-9" barrels with very slow projectiles to shoot very tiny groups, albeit only at 10m. Why did I need to confuse things?! 

If you look at the scores of most air pistol shooters you'll see they aren't even close to shooting groups that the pistols are capable of. 99% of AP shooters in the nation aren't breaking 550's. I bet if they had shorter barrels but kept the long sight radius, scores would go up.
Jon

isn't the why Pilks guns will only sell a short compact guns to customers unless you prove you can shoot 555+ in a major event.

Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....

orpheoet wrote:Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....

That barrel might be best for you

orpheoet wrote:Well, I ordered the 6.5" because I do like the way the 7" balances. I probably should have asked what everyone thinks of the Clark barrels in general.....

I have a 6.5 and my friend has a 5.5. My 6.5 gives me scores like my Hammerli X-esse with CCI SV and we once tested my friend's 5.5 from a Ransom Rest clamped to a heavy wooden rifle bench. 20 shots CCI SV where all inside the X ring at 50 yards (we were looking for worst performance).

Now, I don't know how much I really care to argue the gut reaction/justification that shorter barrels are "more forgiving" and you have to prove yourself some kind of expert to be worthy of shooting long barrels.

But where does the line get drawn in such logic? If a shorter barrel is more forgiving why don't the best of the best shoot 3" barrels with front sight extensions?

Why are all "target" firearms longer 5" or 5.25" versions of the standard pistol?

If you work your way up to the "I am worthy" level with a short barrel, how awful is the transition going to be with a few years of built in bad habits with the shorter barrel?

Slartybartfast wrote:Now, I don't know how much I really care to argue the gut reaction/justification that shorter barrels are "more forgiving" and you have to prove yourself some kind of expert to be worthy of shooting long barrels.

But where does the line get drawn in such logic? If a shorter barrel is more forgiving why don't the best of the best shoot 3" barrels with front sight extensions?

Why are all "target" firearms longer 5" or 5.25" versions of the standard pistol?

If you work your way up to the "I am worthy" level with a short barrel, how awful is the transition going to be with a few years of built in bad habits with the shorter barrel?

If you give a marksman a Ruger MKII with a good trigger job or a Hammerli 208 he/she will shoot the same scores. Ability/skill of shooter will govern over pistol. It's a proven fact that majority of HM shoot 5" barreled 45's. They could use a longslide but choose not to. Why? Obviously they're HM and would shoot one well, but at that level they know what will give them the best repeatable performance. I see many experts shoot an occasional good SF target, but the norm for the typical expert is 1 decent SF and 2 mediocre SF for an aggregate. It's mostly because of their trigger finger not their pistols. So do I think an expert would do better with different pistols? No I don't think so. Would a shorter barrel help? No I don't think so. International pistol shooting is much more difficult to shoot well in comparison to shooting BE. Smaller scoring rings and iron sights. It will show your flaws and eat you up quickly. 60 shot course of fire vs. 1800 or 2700. In a 2700 you can recover from a few bad shots and still avg high. In international a few bad shots and you're done! So barrel length in my opinion doesn't matter much at short line. 50 is another story. But realistically look at how BE shooters make classification. Its primarily based on short line. 2/3 of the match is short line. You can shoot mediocre long line and good short line and make expert. Its not until Master that SF makes much difference. But really what makes or breaks a shooter is there ability to apply fundamentals. I never blame gun/equipment for scores, its 99% shooter. So unfortunately not enough shooters look in the mirror in regards to their BE scores and deal with the real problem. You either have an understanding of the fundamentals and can apply them or you don't! It's that simple. So in regards to your transition statement, if you shoot low scores in BE what makes you think you can shoot good scores in international (FP & AP) with a longer barreled pistol? You'd be lying to yourself! I've been at this game for many many years and I don't believe in fluff. I base it on experience and observation. I form my opinions from that. So shoot what ya got! As far ss being worthy, it was never about self worth. You can reinvent the wheel or learn from others experience. I recommend learning from others.......
Jon

Barrel length is a by product of sight radius. So called 'match' pistols have iron sights so the barrel/slide has to lengthen for the addutional sight distance.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:A 5" gov't 45 is much easier to shoot consistently than a 6" longslide. In a shooters arc of movement the longer the barrel the less forgiving that pistol is to shoot. It's called radial velocity: barrel is moving in radial arc from shooters shoulder. That's why when a marksman shoots a bad shot it gets worse. First from poor trigger control then from the arc of barrel movement. It's not a straight shot out of the barrel, it has negative help from sideways movent of the pistol. When I tank a shot with my 5" it will be 1 scoring ring at 50yds. With the 6" it wll be double. When I'm doing my part I shoot them equally well. But I have to work harder to shoot the 6" well. That's why 99% of HM use a 5" pistol.
Jon

For what it's worth, my personal experience is that I found a 22 with a 7.25" barrel was actually easier for me to hold steady (and score well with) than a similar one with a 5.5" barrel.  I attributed it to the additional weight, but I could be mistaken about that.  Obviously, there's a limit to additional weight, whereby the extra weight, and especially more weight further from the hand/wrist as you'd get with a longer barrel, will make it harder to hold steady.  And I think there's general agreement that a very lightweight gun is not an advantage, either.  So the ideal weight is a compromise somewhere in the middle, and probably varies quite a bit from individual to individual.

But, if you're saying that the main reason why a 6" barrel is more challenging to shoot than a 5" barrel is because the muzzle is 1" further from the shoulder joint... wouldn't that suggest that people with shorter arms would have a significant advantage in bullseye shooting?  The difference in arm length between someone who's tall and someone who's short could exceed 6" from shoulder to muzzle; far more than the 1" difference in barrel lengths discussed above.  

Is there really an advantage in precision pistol to being short (or at least having short arms)?  Do high masters tend to be shorter than average?  (I'm not being facetious here... I really don't know the answer.  I'm just thinking about the implications of what Jon is saying.)

You know I was just being basic in my analysis. Many factors involved in executing a good shot and a bad shot. A longer pistol barrel on a gun with more recoil is affected more by grip pressure and mechanical breakdown of wrist. Now add trigger squeeze to that. So the movement of the pistol can be attributed to the arc from shoulder, wrist alignment, trigger squeeze both good and bad and poor stance (body trying to go neutral while you are forcing misalignment with target.
Bit in a nutshell, a good shooter can feel the difference between 5" and 6" 1911 45 barrel lengths when shooting. My 208S is less forgiving than my SP on the short line. A shot that feels like a 9 with the 208 and is a 9  is typically a scratch 10 with the SP. Is it the barrel length? I don't know, but the SP is very forgiving to shoot in comparison.
Jon

x

As Adam was advancing in his shooting skills I made sure that he had in his hands the best that would work in his hands. Naturally having a complete machine shop I can modify or alter any gun and as in one case I made the entire gun. Being his first match at Perry was when he was 10 years old I had to adjust the guns as he got older. What I found was that fit in the hand, trigger pull and balance was the best combination. Barrel length didn't mater as long as the gun balanced as the shooter desired. Naturally in my case I could modify the balance to allow Adam to test the gun and I adjust to what Adam felt preformed best for him!
 Yes most European made International pistols have short barrels but most of the international events are 25m. The only long line International Pistol event is Free Pistol yet none that I know of have short barrels, usually longer barrels. Yet the one common item is weights that the shooter can use to adjust the gun to his desire. Most of the guns available barrel length is not that easy to make shorter with exception of a few like the Ruger and High Standard.

A lot of this controversy, to me, is indicative of poor wrist control.  Years ago we used to call it locking your wrist, but you really can't do that.  Mechanically a wrist is very much like a universal joint on a driveshaft. When we "locked" our wrist what we actually did was apply tension to all the tendons that control wrist movement.  By doing that the hand and arm became relatively rigid.  A firm grip helps establish this tension because the finger tendons can help.

When we shoot the body moves and in a higher class shooter they compensate for the swaying of the body by micro adjusting the arm to keep the sights aligned with the eye and the aiming point.  (This has been proven to be the case with rifle shooters shooting standing.). The adjustment should be made at the shoulder not the wrist.  But a lot of shooters start relaxing the wrist to adjust and the wobble starts to increase.  With a long muzzle heavy gun, this amplifies the wobble.  

I didn't get the handle Wobbley for no reason....

I find these posts very interesting.  The reason being is I have a new Xesse with a 6-inch barrel.  I seem to being flipping shots farther out of my normal wobble.  And I was thinking it has to do with the length of the barrel.
I was thinking of having the barrel cut down.