Zeroing and point of impact?

Well,.... I don't what else to title it as.  Question is......does/can/will a pistol hit in a different place when shot from the hand than it would when shot from a rest with the same sight picture? Went to the range this morning and shot two runs of rapid fire... and both would have been great if the clusters of loose nines at 9 o'clock were centered on the X ring. For a while now, I've been blaming the nine o'clock grouping on stinky trigger pulls. Looked back through my notes and old targets and can see a pattern. Yet when I shoot the gun from a rest, the windage is on. I realize this rested shooting is not very scientific ..... we have a portable bench rest that we can bring into our booth, and I shoot two handed resting on a rolled up sheepskin bomber jacket. I can call the shots centered and they are. When shooting free hand, I can call the shots good and they are in a cluster to the left. Today I finally went ahead and moved the dot over.....just hope that isn't a patch fix for bad grip and trigger form. 
                                                             As always, hoping this finds everyone well, and thank you in advance;
                                                                                                                                                                    Bill

Bill I have had the same question for a long time.  I shoot a lot of benchrest pistol.  I like benchrest rifle but when most of my shooting is indoors a rifle that shoots 1/3" @ 100yds isn't a lot of fun indoors.  A pistol adds a little challenge.  I can get one ragged hole instead of one hole at 20yds.  Yep shooting off hand either with one or 2 hands I am not hitting the same spot.  I figure it is trigger and grip but adjust the sights for it.  I do not see how a rest can change the POI if the barrel is not touching the rest and the grip is hand held.  Maybe we will both learn something here.  Don

ST BERNARD wrote:does/can/will a pistol hit in a different place when shot from the hand than it would when shot from a rest with the same sight picture

Yes.

+1 Jon's correct.

Shooting offhand vs a bench rest most definitely can change shot placement on paper. I notice a more distinct change of point of impact offhand in larger calibers like the 45 that have more recoil. I believe that the recoil pushes the gun into your hand a particular way just a little bit, and an instant before the bullet is released from the barrel, thus altering the bullets intended path. It was frustrating as hell when I was fresh into this sport, because I'd sight the gun in off the bench but my groups on paper were never where they should have been out of my hand - and I wasn't a consistent enough or knowledgeable enough shooter to know any better. I figured it was my grip changing, flinching, trigger follow through, etc, when it was actually all of those things, in addition to the true off hand point of impact being different from the bench rest. 

Now I'll only sight guns in offhand. Start at 40 feet and a 1" dot, then check my spread and location at 25 yards on a 3" dot.

Just a slight change in your grip from mag to mag, even shot to shot, can change where you hit at least a little.  That's why learning and being consistent is so important.

Thanks for the replies Gentlemen. For the last couple months now, we are starting to get most of the 30 shots into groups that would easily fit into the black of the B8-C targets. There are strays for sure, and I usually know why. Hopefully the sight adjustment will get those groups to center over the black....just a few inches would turn the 8s and 9s into 10s..(even a extra X or two!) For me, I think this is where the shot calling is finally starting to happen.....KNOWING that those triggers pulls and sight pictures were good ones and the holes should have been a lot closer to where the dot was. We'll be going back to the range first thing in the morning and work on getting centered up.

james r chapman wrote:+1 Jon's correct.

Wat.

I found something similar when trying to sight in by resting the gun on sandbags.  Adjusted the sights by shooting off a sandbag, and then tried to shoot it off hand, and the groups were typical for me, but not in the middle.  I thought about that for a minute, and realized that, from the sandbags I was holding the gun with 2 hands and getting my head MUCH closer to the sights.  When I assumed a 1-handed position much more like my bullseye shooting stance, but rested on the sandbag, the groups were close to where they were off hand.  Lesson learned.  

So now when sighting in, I try to get close to my bullseye stance, but rested on a sandbag to reduce my wobble area, and things work out much better.

I've never used a machine rest before, but maybe make sure you're adjusting its hold to put the dot/front sight at the desired point-of-aim while your head is at arms-length from the pistol, and using just your dominant eye, etc., like you would when shooting off hand.

Shooting from/with a rest only confirms that your load & gun are right.  Where they go when you're on the line is another sad story in my case.

I had removed my Matchdot this last weekend and reinstalled it so Monday I checked the sighting using one of those long X shaped rifle sand bags.  By just laying my forearm in the bag and shooting one handed the POI as petty close to what I get standing with one hand.  It is mostly a grip problem I think.  Give mt two hands and I could compete.  Don

Magload wrote:I had removed my Matchdot this last weekend and reinstalled it so Monday I checked the sighting using one of those long X shaped rifle sand bags.  By just laying my forearm in the bag and shooting one handed the POI as petty close to what I get standing with one hand.  It is mostly a grip problem I think.  Give mt two hands and I could compete.  Don

Did you do this with the 45 or the 22?

daflorc wrote:

Magload wrote:I had removed my Matchdot this last weekend and reinstalled it so Monday I checked the sighting using one of those long X shaped rifle sand bags.  By just laying my forearm in the bag and shooting one handed the POI as petty close to what I get standing with one hand.  It is mostly a grip problem I think.  Give mt two hands and I could compete.  Don

Did you do this with the 45 or the 22?

LB 45.  I haven't even sighted in the new Nelson yet but as soon as I finish catching up on todats post I am headed to the range to do that.  Don

Sighted in the Nelson using the sandbag to just support my forearm @ 50ft.  Was happy with sighting so zeroed the turret as that is where most of my shooting is done at. When shooting standing on my hind legs I had to come down 4 clicks and left 2 clicks ,  Very impressed with the Nelson and KC Battle Axe trigger.  For the first time I was shooting X ring size groups except for pulling a couple shots.  Normally I pull 8 out of 10 maybe getting 4 in the black.  I am very happy with this set up and ordered the stuff to set up the LB Wadgun the same.  Don

Magload wrote:Sighted in the Nelson using the sandbag to just support my forearm @ 50ft.  Was happy with sighting so zeroed the turret as that is where most of my shooting is done at. When shooting standing on my hind legs I had to come down 4 clicks and left 2 clicks ,  Very impressed with the Nelson and KC Battle Axe trigger.  For the first time I was shooting X ring size groups except for pulling a couple shots.  Normally I pull 8 out of 10 maybe getting 4 in the black.  I am very happy with this set up and ordered the stuff to set up the LB Wadgun the same.  Don

I 2nd the KC battle axe hammer/sear. I have it in my RRA wadcutter and shot this 50ft slowfire last Sunday - never mind the fliers and incorrect score  I've been getting really tight groups like this ever since I put the battle axe into my gun. I've got a Les Baer 9mm/38 super with a battle axe that I'll be putting the Nelson on whenever it comes in the mail. Let me tell you, the battle axe combined with a 2lbs pull is like butter. Pictured below is with my RRA and a 3.75lbs pull, still extremely helpful. 

I don't notice any change in point of impact when shooting off bags.