Recoil Control Part 2: Heeling in Anticipation of Recoil

In my match today, I lost about 20 shots in the 6-7 rings between 12 to 1 o'clock. The shot chart says I'm heeling the gun in anticipation of the recoil. I could use some pointers please, some assuming I have an imperfect grip and that's the issue since I'm not confident in my grip, some concerning breaking my wrist which I know I do, and some assuming this rifle guy still is still not a fan of recoil.

Thanks!

Go to the encyclopedia of Bullseye and look up the article Brian Zins wrote. There is a section on grip. Also look over the Pistol Shooters Treasury book. Info in there on grip. Once you get your grip figured out - or you feel like you got one that's comfortable and lets you execute trigger control properly with out sucking support from the rest of the hand - dry fire. Dry fire agin. And dry fire some more. 

Know what you're supposed to do with out recoil. Make that your base line for "muscle memory" if you believe in such a thing. Then once you got a good hold, good trigger press, and FOLLOW THROUGH - that last one is key by the way - mix in recoil with live fire. Recoil masks what you're doing. Knowing how to read your target lets you know what happened. Dry fire lets you learn the steps right. Recoil is just a reaction to pulling the trigger. Ride it out. Don't fight it.

You have mentioned rifle in your posts and distinguished badges. Did you earn a service rifle badge, if so, .308 or .223? How did you shoot standing?

You have to explore muscle action in the forearm to learn what sets the wrist.  A fist grab on the grip doesn't always do it.  A set wrist will help steady the sights too.  And like Tim says "Recoil is just a reaction..".

What caliber were you shooting? Didn't say. Trigger finger is supposed to be independent of gripping fingers. It's a learned skill. Try to start your trigger squeeze and keep squeezing until bang. No hesitation or picking shots. Just plain simple start squeezing and keep squeezing until it goes bang. If your trigger job/pull on pistol sucks then get it fixed. Have a Master dry fire your pistol to see if its good or not. You have to accept the fact that pistol is going to show movement and you just have to keep squeezing the trigger. Finesse is required when squeezing! Can't just squeeze it. Dry fire before a shooting session and dry fire between strings of live fire. Should be able to execute both live and dry identically. Keep the trigger moving! Keep the trigger moving! Keep.......
Jon

I would forget about the wheel of misfortune. It's focusing on what is wrong. Try to figure out what you need to do right.   Do you have a  grip that eliminates movement when the shot breaks in dryfire? 

I have short fat fingers and the Zins grip works for me. The referenced article is a good one, try it. Another thing that he teaches is to dryfire to check your grip each time you grip the gun. Dryfire during per period, dryfire when you can between stages, dryfire when there is an alibi being shot?  You don't know if the grip is right without checking it. So check it. 

And listen carefully anytime a 2650 gunsmith shooter offers you advise.

I shot 22 only in the match. I also shot a heavy barrel on my M41 for the first time instead of a field barrel. The weight for sure was a bit more than I currently prefer, but don't think it was a factor with these shots.

My main rifle experience is in smallbore prone and 3p. I shot in in college so you can add air rifle in there too. I have shot high power, and use an AR in 223. My standing position with the AR is pretty compact, I support the rifle with the web of my left hand between the index finger and thumb on the trigger guard behind the magazine. That is the position that best mimicked my smallbore and air standing positions.

Recoil control there is very different in my mind at the moment since the rifle is contacted in three separate spots (two hands and a shoulder) and the rifles are significantly heavier (air 12lbs, SB and AR 14ish). I have no issues riding out the recoil there, but is a passive action, often upset by muscle tension anywhere in the position. My hands barely grip those guns.

I have read Zins article on grip. The pad of my palm opposite the meaty part under the thumb is a struggle for me, where to place it. The holster method he mentions puts it further behind the gun that I think it's meant to be. I seem to get better results when I rotate my hand a little around the right side of the grip (I'm a righty). I also struggle with relaxing my grip as I come down on the target since that's what I do in rifle. This weekend I tried keeping my natural grip tension from rifle with the gun low to high, and then adding pressure as I come down on the target. Wasn't encouraged by the shot results. Pretty sure I started gripping too hard.

I have had people shoot my M41 and they say it's great. Dave Salter currently has my wife's and my 1911s and is working on them. My RO is the pistol I dry fire with.

My dry fire practice shows a little movement to the right at the trigger break still, but that's a major improvement over when I started. Still used to 1-2oz triggers.i feel I'm making progress on that and it just needs more time and effort.

When I get back home I'll poster my target with all the shots on it from this weekend. I approached it with the goal of keeping all the shots in the black. In the pistol workbook I'm on the 20 straight 10s at 25y exercise. I pretty regularly get to around 14-16 in a row recently, then lose one around 1oc.

Since it was .22, it's not recoil related. More than likely anticipation of the shot. To hit those high scoring rings is a 'gross' motor movement error. Basically like I earlier said "trigger finger is seperate/independent of gripping fingers". Sounds like you're on right track. 
Jon

When I shot highpower with the M1A standing, we held on to the pistol grip rather firmly.  This is counter to what 3P shooters do.  Since you're repeating that with the AR your "muscle memory" has a relaxed grip.  You'll need to work on that for pistol.  Maybe for highpower too.  The reason we did it was to be able to pull the rifle into our shoulder firmly.  The benefit was recoil control.  The 308 moves you around and if the gun isn't held firmly it can get out of control.  The test was to drop the left hand and see what happened.  If the gun dropped with the left hand you didn't have enough back pressure.

I'm sure it have some grip pressure on my AR compared to SB where I have a hook butt plate. Either way, controlling recoil meant letting the gun recoil the same way every time, no driving the gun back down. 70sec rapid fire in HP is an eternity. I've sighted in and shot 20 shots for record SB in less than 3min, even had a 20x that way. I have gotten to the point I don't feel rushed at all in TF. RF still needs work, I just don't yet have an understanding of how much time I have.

My HP struggles have to do with ammo and come ups. Standing is pretty easy compared to SB and air, but repeatably shooting a tight 10 shot group in the 7-8 rings at 300 got annoying. Now have what I need to reload myself I stead of borrowing ammo.

Thank you everyone for the advice. Other than those high shots, I have a nice centered group other than a handful of shots low left, but I put those there and knew it. The shots I'm concerned with I called in the black.

Next stop, Eastern Games!

Now that I see you are talking about .22 I have to completely agree with Jon in that you are anticipating the shot. You might be starting the recoil before the shot goes (because you are too aggressively making the shot go) or looking over the sights as you break the shot and sending the shots high. both errors I did for quite a while before breaking the habit through dryfire.
What kind of sight picture do you use. I found using a small line of white picture easier to see the sights tilting up when I broke the shot. With a six o'clock or c.o.m. hold it was hard to see the sights clear enough to see that small tilt since the black sights are in the black target. Doing a bunch of blank target shooting should help you make better shots since the bullseye is what is making you lose trigger control.
The big guns always talk about dryfire and blank target training for a reason, it is what works in developing a shot process to repeatably shoot a ten and then ingrain it. put your target up backwards for a bit and see the sights without the impression of added movement from "the black death ray" as I call it, just focus on the front sight and develop a trigger pull that does not change those sight at all. make one small adjustment at a time to find the sweet spot.

In the awl'd days of highpower, the old saying was legs were won at 200 standing.  But one time I lost it at 200 and won it back at 600.

I have noticed being drawn to a sub 6 hold, maybe for the reason you mention, though I'm sure I can get that same feedback without it since I should be looking at the front sight anyways, not the white sliver which might mean I'm looking at the target.

Dave should have my 1911 back to me soon, until then I'll wear out some drywall plugs with my 22.  I had planned to shoot 22 only until I broke 810 in 22, but with the Eastern Games later this month, and no matches between now and then I can be sure I'll make, looks like my hand is forced for one weekend at least.

Here is a link to my target from this weekend:

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AvDc37kBk9_Xqn9zfpV8oTXq845U

In addition to the shots between 12-1oc, I noticed I have only one shot between 3-4oc outside the 10 ring, almost like that piece of the pie has been eaten already.  Not worried about it, just interesting...and funny.

Thanks again!