Which pistol other than a 1911

First topic message reminder :

Maybe sacrilege to many here, but which 45 pistol would you get OTHER than a 1911?

I get it, history, installed base, etc means there's more parts and expertise for the 1911. Surely some of the other best high end 45's (Pardini GT45, Sig P220 X-Six) compete with the best high end 1911s for accuracy.

And how about cheaper than "high end"?

I suppose the reality is that if I want to compete, my realistic options are one of the European guns in .22 and .32. Although my experience is limited in knowing what competitions (besides ISSF style) are out there within my travel limits.


I suppose that personally, I prefer competitions that are equipment neutral that test the skill of the one competitor. F1/Indy are great to watch but often really show which team is best and which has the best engineers and spent the most money. Driver skill plays a role, but it's in stock/production class racing that driver skill is most important.

So maybe what I would like to concentrate on production and service class competitions. In an ideal world I'd love to have access to competitions like the Glock series and the NRA World Shooting Championship where the guns are the same or supplied and everyone uses the same ammunition.

Maybe a better question is which 1911 would you buy ( other than Springfield, Colt, Kimber or Baer)? 

I really like the SIG 1911 And the S&W 1911s, though I don't own either.

LenV wrote:Slarty, I think you should check out the rule book. A lot of things that you are asking about we already have in this sport. Did you know that we have three different levels of competition? There is the "Open" class which is pretty self explanatory. The "Steel sight only" class that allows you to use every pistol in the box you just can't use any optics. And then finally we have the "Production" class which seems to me to be the one you are most interested in. You need to know that a 1911 does not even qualify for production class because SA only pistols are not allowed. They started these divisions almost 3 years ago and there has not been a whole bunch of shooters jumping on that band wagon. But, they are there and you can shoot them. You will only be competing against others in same gear type class.

Len

LenV,
I'll certainly be shooting sight steel only. That's all that's allowed if I shoot locally and the sights on my .22 are being tolerated, but aren't actually acceptable by the rules.
That bit was a kind of a diatribe on my part. Frustrated that it seems there's no easy way into competition in these parts.
The possibility of travelling on occasion stateside to occasionally compete is alluring. If I do, it will probably be with an inexpensive .45 to play along in the 45 part. But I would still like something that when I practice with it, some semblance of the grip and use is applicable to the .22 and .32 international disciplines. There's a SIG P220 in .45 that might fullfill my, would be nice to have a 45 itch.
For local competition, the expensive pistol will probably be a convertible 22/32. Which, while I don't like being a follower of what is simply popular, will probably be a Pardini HP. But knowing the possibility and differences in bullseye, I'll probably be the bullseye version so that I leave the optics option open.
The reaction to a simple question from some as if I have some angle or that I'm insulting the manhood of American 1911 shooters because the 1911 doesn't do it for me is surprising but not entirely unexpected. It's the same reaction you get in car clubs, of which I've been a member, and you dare say something that possibly hazards that there are other options or that perfect purity to serial matched cars isn't the only thing that might be fun to pursue.

Tim:H11 wrote:No bashing here intended but I thought I'd share a view I have on pistol shooting. I think - even if everyone were to be issued match guns and the best ammunition, the results wouldn't change much. 

And there-in lies one of the great contradictions in competition shooting. I think that that is entirely true.
But, in trying to discuss what equipment to get, you get drowned in the must have equipment and monk like testing of reload formulas.

I was told "equipment doesn't matter" but got odd treatment when I bought an unknown "cheap" pistol. I think I've pissed off a couple of the Pardini SP shooters because I can match or beat them. One was derisive and ignored me until after seeing my results after two or three nights suddenly strikes up a conversation with me and had obviously watched every Youtube video available on my pistol.

Then there's the Russian at our club. Rifle and pistol coach, served as a commander in a tank division during the cold war era. Keeps complementing my technique and offering good advice. But never misses a chance to say my pistol is crap.

Slartibartfast, results are what count.  Not looks nor potential.

Slartybartfast wrote:

Tim:H11 wrote:No bashing here intended but I thought I'd share a view I have on pistol shooting. I think - even if everyone were to be issued match guns and the best ammunition, the results wouldn't change much. 

And there-in lies one of the great contradictions in competition shooting. I think that that is entirely true.
But, in trying to discuss what equipment to get, you get drowned in the must have equipment and monk like testing of reload formulas.

I was told "equipment doesn't matter" but got odd treatment when I bought an unknown "cheap" pistol. I think I've pissed off a couple of the Pardini SP shooters because I can match or beat them. One was derisive and ignored me until after seeing my results after two or three nights suddenly strikes up a conversation with me and had obviously watched every Youtube video available on my pistol.

Then there's the Russian at our club. Rifle and pistol coach, served as a commander in a tank division during the cold war era. Keeps complementing my technique and offering good advice. But never misses a chance to say my pistol is crap.

Like Wobbley said, results are what we're after. For example: I shoot a $350 percussion revolver (competitive muzzle loading pistols) that had about $100 worth of machining done to it and my work smoothing the trigger out. I hold a national record and two national championship titles with that gun. Stock barrel.

I think there are definitely some staple suggestions in this sport. Certain guns to buy, certain ones to avoid. But in the end it matters on preference and can you shoot it well. What are you willing to tolerate and what can't you in a guns performance?

Not to be rude but the 1911 is time tested, there is much available for it, and seems to be reasonably priced to have accurized by the right people. We don't cling to it for a history sake or other reasons mentioned. It's simply a very good platform to build a very accurate gun out of. A very simple puzzle with not so many parts. "If it isn't broke, don't try to fix it" comes to mind. Anything else in 45 (save the revolver) seems complicated, expensive, and then you'll need specialized people to work on it if need be and parts become costly.

Not every gun fits every shooters hands or style/technique. So when something doesn't work for someone they may say "eh... its entry level at best" or "It's crap". One example - there are plenty of people that don't like a 1911 conversion for a 22. They'd prefer a 22 built gun. I love my Nelson and shoot it very well. Just depends on the shooter.

If I had to choose a pistol other then a 1911 I would choose the 945. I am a S&W fan and have the matching 952. Pistol derived from a model 39. I have heard only praise about them. Not the one in picture  http://www.gunbroker.com/item/651739740

LenV wrote:If I had to choose a pistol other then a 1911 I would choose the 945. I am a S&W fan and have the matching 952. Pistol derived from a model 39. I have heard only praise about them. Not the one in picture  http://www.gunbroker.com/item/651739740

Seems very 1911-esk

By their very function lots of pistols look alike. Notice the rear of the slide. Totally different hammer/firing pin/safety. Parts won't exchange with a 1911. A model 39 looks a lot like a 1911 but different critter inside. Notice the round area on slide. Used to be where safety was located.

USMC Shooting Team

* Hammerli 208S or Marvel/Nelson 22 Conversions
* 1911 for CF/45 for Rimfire
* M9 or 1911 for service pistol (rumor is transitioning to 9mm 1911)
* Note:  Tyros and Fleet nugs get S&W M41s w/Eley TENEX

USAMU Shooting Team

* Hammerli 208S for Rimfire
* 1911 for CF/45
* M9 for service pistol
* Note: XD(M) only used to demonstrate capability, not the standard for P100/EIC

Chris Miceli wrote:But seriously a Springfield range officer is more then enough to start with or a nice used gun.
The bullseye game isn't a equipment race no matter what you think. The best out there will beat you with a stock gun and you with a worked over one.
To be competitive with the top shooters in the nation, you need well functioning and accurate equipment like they have.

As usual great advice from Chris.  I started with a RO and out of the box, with a trigger job it was good enough to get leg points.  Sent it to one of the well known gunsmiths, and there are several world class folks on the website and it is now shockingly accurate. 

Slartybartfast wrote:I was told "equipment doesn't matter" but got odd treatment when I bought an unknown "cheap" pistol. I think I've pissed off a couple of the Pardini SP shooters because I can match or beat them. One was derisive and ignored me until after seeing my results after two or three nights suddenly strikes up a conversation with me and had obviously watched every Youtube video available on my pistol.

Jon built a Ruger 22/45 for my Son.  It's cheap, but it looks to be a terrific shooter nobody should care.  Surprising description of your environment, but there may be more at play.  I've been blessed to never been at a club where fellow Bullseye shooters cared what I or anyone else was shooting negatively other than constructive (honest) advice.  Typically I see excellent sportsmanship and mentorshiop for those not shooting well, and a humility for those that are.  It's been a great sport.

Slartybartfast wrote:The only reason a 1911 .22 conversion is good idea IMO is because you can then use one trigger & frame to shoot the whole 2700. So why is the platform/design worthy of "no better choice" status in 45?

Why a 1911 in 45 with a 22lr conversion and not a SIG SAUER X6 in 45 with a 22lr conversion?

Bingo!  Use and learn one trigger and master it for an entire match.  Not very many options allow you to use the same pistol for 22, CF (38 SPEC/9mm/38 Super) and 45 with the variety of options. I'm not sure who makes Sig's conversion.  The Nelson/Marvel are often sub 1" conversions and Larry is spectacular in his presence at nationals and customer service. I doubt Sig conversions offer an accuracy guarantee or the same level of support if you have issues or even appear at Camp Perry. That said it doesn't mean it's not a valid option, there are just some challenges. I was with Dave Sams when he was building a 22 conversion on an M9 for a shooter going after leg points who wanted to practice with 22 and use it in the rimfire match along with his M9 in CF.  I believe Dave had to re-line it, install target sights and some other odds and ends, which added $500 to the conversion.  More than doubling the price of a Nelson 1911 conversion.

It's hard, but not impossible, to outperform the 1911.  However, they're forgiving to shoot and guys like KC/Jerry/Jon/etc. can build some brutally accurate pistols.
These are just an example, there are some example 9mm groups from Jerry that are unbelievable.

Top target is a 22 conversion test target (5 shots) at 50 yards from Marvel.  A best of breed.
The second a 9mm (10 shots) and below 45 ACP (10 shots) 1911 at 50 yards from David Sams.

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:USMC Shooting Team

* Hammerli 208S or Marvel/Nelson 22 Conversions
* 1911 for CF/45 for Rimfire
* M9 or 1911 for service pistol
* Note:  Tyros and Fleet nugs get S&W M41s w/Eley TENEX

USAMU Shooting Team

* Hammerli 208S for Rimfire
* 1911 for CF/45
* M9 for service pistol
* Note: XD(M) only used to demonstrate capability, not the standard.

Chris Miceli wrote:But seriously a Springfield range officer is more then enough to start with or a nice used gun.
The bullseye game isn't a equipment race no matter what you think. The best out there will beat you with a stock gun and you with a worked over one.
To be competitive with the top shooters in the nation, you need well functioning and accurate equipment like they have.

As usual great advice from Chris.  I started with a RO and out of the box, with a trigger job it was good enough to get leg points.  Sent it to one of the well known gunsmiths, and there are several world class folks on the website and it is now shockingly accurate. 

Slartybartfast wrote:I was told "equipment doesn't matter" but got odd treatment when I bought an unknown "cheap" pistol. I think I've pissed off a couple of the Pardini SP shooters because I can match or beat them. One was derisive and ignored me until after seeing my results after two or three nights suddenly strikes up a conversation with me and had obviously watched every Youtube video available on my pistol.

Jon built a Ruger 22/45 for my Son.  It's cheap, but it looks to be a terrific shooter nobody should care.  Unfortunate shooting environment.  I've never been at a club where fellow Bullseye shooters cared what I was shooting.  Typically I see excellent sportsmanship and mentorshiop for those not shooting well, and a humble nature for those that are.  It's been a great sport.

Slartybartfast wrote:The only reason a 1911 .22 conversion is good idea IMO is because you can then use one trigger & frame to shoot the whole 2700. So why is the platform/design worthy of "no better choice" status in 45?

Why a 1911 in 45 with a 22lr conversion and not a SIG SAUER X6 in 45 with a 22lr conversion?

Bingo!  Use and learn one trigger and master it for an entire match.  Not very many options allow you to use the same pistol for 22/CF (38 SPEC/9mm/38 Super)/45. 
I'm not sure who makes Sig's conversion.  The Nelson/Marvel are often sub 1" conversions and Larry is spectacular in his presence at nationals and customer service. I doubt Sig conversions offer an accuracy guarantee or the same level of support if you have issues or even appear at Camp Perry. That said it doesn't mean it's not a valid option, there are just some challenges. I was with Dave Sams when he was building a 22 conversion on an M9 for a shooter going after leg points who wanted to practice with 22 and use it in the rimfire match along with his M9 in CF.  I believe Dave had to re-line it, install target sights and some other odds and ends, which added $500 to the conversion.  More than doubling the price of a Nelson 1911 conversion.

It's hard, but not impossible, to outperform the 1911.  However, they're forgiving to shoot and guys like KC/Jerry/Jon/etc. can build some brutally accurate pistols.

Top target is a 22 conversion test target (5 shots) at 50 yards from Nelson.
The second a 9mm (10 shots) and below 45 ACP (10 shots) 1911 at 50 yards from David Sams.

I can't see your 22 target!! 

I can't see his 22 target either. Chris did I mention how nice the 945 fits my hand?

LenV wrote:I can't see his 22 target either. Chris did I mention how nice the 945 fits my hand?

Haha

Chris Miceli wrote:

LenV wrote:I can't see his 22 target either. Chris did I mention how nice the 945 fits my hand?

Haha

I wish that was real.  Dang what a pocket pistol.  Don

If money were no object, I'd give the Korth PRS a shot.  The frame looks like a 1911 style frame, however, it is fixed barrel, roller-delayed action.  That should make for a very accurate gun out of the box.

If we're dreaming about a scratch-built .45 design, I think the ideal would be a fixed barrel gun, with some sort of retarded blowback design (straight blowback would probably require a *really* heavy bolt and a lot of recoil), with a fully adjustable two-stage trigger (like a Pardini SP/HP), a bore axis as low as possible, and with a 5-round magazine immediately in front of the trigger guard.  It would have a frame and/or barrel that incorporated a weaver base into its top surface, with iron sights between the rails of the weaver base.  It would accept caliber conversions for .38 super, 9x19, .32acp, and .22lr with just a swap of the barrel, bolt, recoil spring, and magazines.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/02/korth-prs-1911-style-semi-auto-pistol-45-acp/#korth-prs-4-inch-1

If your goal is just to experiment and have fun try out several different alternatives. If your goal is to be competitive, the 1911 is the only logical choice. It has tremendous support in the way of accessories and pistolsmithing. That is why it is THE choice of champion shooters and champion teams.

Accuracy requirements by range and group size with associated distance.
Good luck on the search!

http://searchwarp.com/swa608885-What-Do-The-Real-Experts-Have-To-Say-About-Purchasing-A-Firearm.htm

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/12/exclusive-testing-worlds-accurate-pistols-part/


Feinwerkbau AW 93 - .47" - .55" - 50 yds
Hammerli 208S - .75"  - 50 yds
Pardini SP - 1" - 50 yds
Marvel 22 Conversion - 1" - 50 yds
Morini CM22 T - .4" - 25m
Sig Sauer Rimfire - 2.5" - 25 yds


Walther GSP 32 - 15mm - 23mm (outside diameter) - 25m

Pardini GT45 - 1.2" - 1.6" - 25 yds
Sig Sauer Sport pistols - 2.5" - 25 yds

mpolans wrote:If money were no object, I'd give the Korth PRS a shot.  The frame looks like a 1911 style frame, however, it is fixed barrel, roller-delayed action.  That should make for a very accurate gun out of the box.

If we're dreaming about a scratch-built .45 design, I think the ideal would be a fixed barrel gun, with some sort of retarded blowback design (straight blowback would probably require a *really* heavy bolt and a lot of recoil), with a fully adjustable two-stage trigger (like a Pardini SP/HP), a bore axis as low as possible, and with a 5-round magazine immediately in front of the trigger guard.  It would have a frame and/or barrel that incorporated a weaver base into its top surface, with iron sights between the rails of the weaver base.  It would accept caliber conversions for .38 super, 9x19, .32acp, and .22lr with just a swap of the barrel, bolt, recoil spring, and magazines.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/02/korth-prs-1911-style-semi-auto-pistol-45-acp/#korth-prs-4-inch-1

I had a chance to shoot the Masaki Dragon gun once.....way cool adventure