Baer Barrel Fit

First topic message reminder :

[url=[url=https://s280.photobucket.com/user/300redbeard/media/Baer Lower Lugs.jpg.html][/url]][/url]


[url=[url=https://s280.photobucket.com/user/300redbeard/media/Jon Lower Lugs.jpg.html][/url]][/url]

[size=48]Here is a picture of a typical Baer (top photo) barrel bottom lug fit. The barrel has approximately 0.010" of bearing surface for lockup. This means the barrel will drop out of battery after slide has traveled 0.010". Translates to higher slide velocity and more felt recoil. The headspace was good on this barrel and sides of hood were sloppy loose. Also the upper barrel lugs were unfit! So QC was on low end of totem pole as usual. The barrel I am fitting has 0.075" of bearing surface for lockup which means slower slide velocity because barrel stays in battery about 7x longer; yes it makes a difference. Proper upper lug fit and hood fit. Baer barrel easily rotates when placed into slide. My barrel will NOT rotate. Hood and upper lug fit prevent it. I've only seen one Baer 45 that the bsrrel was fit correctly in over 20 years. Just because it feels tight in battery doesn't make it right. Just thought I'd share.[/size]
[size=48]Jon[/size]

I can't see the photos either, get a message to up-date my account to allow 3rd party hosting. Have no idea where that is about only thing I added was my birthday.
 I have seen a few LB guns and agree with Jon the barrel is not fit properly. I think barrel fit is the most important part of making the 1911 a Bullseye accurate gun. Plus maintaining accuracy for a long time.
 I don't know if LB is testing the guns at 50 yards but checking them at 25 and calculating the results at 50 will not work! I have seen quite a few 1911's shoot great at 25 yards but shoot very bad at 50.

Jon, it's not this site - it's a change in Photobucket.  All the images on that site that used to show up no longer do, on any site.  I think they want a few hundred dollars to fix that, which apparently nobody is paying.

When you have time, can you upload those original images up above to this site using the "host an image" tool as Tim:H11 suggested?

There is a message in this - don't trust anything to last forever.  The cloud, the facebook, web sites, any on-line information - if it's important to you, download it someplace safe, and even then be aware that the media you save it to may not work with new tools in the future (anyone have any old floppy disks?).   

Jon, the really sad thing is that people who submitted photos to Photobucket can't even get their own photos back without paying - it's being called "blackmail" in the various discussions:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/katienotopoulos/photobucket-just-killed-a-chunk-of-internet-history?utm_term=.fvnJW3w4Q#.lvvZd6v3K


Back to the present, I just uploaded a photo of Magnus bullets to the server attached to this forum.  Maybe everyone else here already knows how to do it - if not, I'll post a set of directions.

...and I'd still like to see the images that started off this discussion, when/if you get time.

I've had no problem Dow loading my Photobucket back to my computer. What are you saying Mike?

(I take that back! They have issues now with downloading albums!!)

james r chapman wrote:I've had no problem Dow loading my Photobucket back to my computer. What are you saying Mike?

(I take that back! They have issues now with downloading albums!!)

Their revenue strategy backfired, people were downloading all their pictures and leaving.  Now they are trying to hold your photo's for a ransom - there will be a lawsuit if that continues!
- Dave

I really don't care if they keep my photos. It's all guns and targets anyway. Old stuff mostly. All that stuff was on my computer first (and I still have it) so I say leave em! They wanna play games? Let em play on their own. I'm out!

Mike Meyers, your right nothing free last forever, even things we pay for. Somebody will see that more and more people are using their product, then it's time to charge more or change to a "new improved version".
  I don't want to step on anyones toes but I think we are also asked to buy extended warranties, more types of and more protection than our families and spouses would ever need. All in the name of "legalized extortion", remember what the mob charged our grandparents to protect them from a bad situation.
  I'm way off track here, Mike you seem like a person who can explain stuff better than I, if you could show us an easier way to post pictures please do.
 Stan

chopper wrote:......if you could show us an easier way to post pictures please do....

I'll do that in a new thread, so this one can get back to Les Baer barrels, etc.
Thanks!

Jon,

The on-site hosting is much more user friendly that it used to be.  Give it another try.

Wow that was easy. Thanks Rob.
Upper barrel Baer.
Lower barrel Jon

The new thread is posted.  Hopefully I explained it simply enough.  Anything is easy once you already know how to do it.....      :-)

There seem to be multiple ways to do this - I picked one that seemed the easiest to explain.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t8217-two-ways-to-post-photos-in-this-forum

I think everyone already knows how to use internet links to insert photos?

I use imgur as it works really well.  Photobucket really does suck at this point.

As to the point of the thread:  I'm not quite sure I understand what the function of longer lugs does.  Could someone explain that a little better?  I'm looking at my gun (Range officer worked over by the guy behind Kodiak Custom)  and I'm not seeing how the longer lugs would make the gun unlock more slowly...

Jon Eulette wrote:.......Here is a picture of a typical Baer (top photo) barrel bottom lug fit. The barrel has approximately 0.010" of bearing surface for lockup. This means the barrel will drop out of battery after slide has traveled 0.010". Translates to higher slide velocity and more felt recoil. ...........The barrel I am fitting has 0.075" of bearing surface for lockup which means slower slide velocity because barrel stays in battery about 7x longer; .....

Jon, I don't think I understand any of this well enough for it to make sense to me.  I compared the two images, and was tempted to enlarge and brighten them so I could see things better...    ....what I don't understand is why this would mean what you wrote.  If the barrel stays in battery for a longer time, why would the slide velocity be less, along with the felt recoil?  

I used to have a stop-motion video of how a 1911 works.  Will try to find it again.  If what you are doing is better than others, what is their reason for doing it in a way that isn't so good?

I believe Jon is talking about the length of this shelf that is right beside the red line I added. (Took me a few minutes studying the pictures to tell what it was.)

fpk wrote:I believe Jon is talking about the length of this shelf that is right beside the red line I added. (Took me a few minutes studying the pictures to tell what it was.)

those are bullseye lugs.

Bad experience with Baer 1911 here too.  Traded for a new one  that had been purchased througn Dave Severns.  Severns had "fitted" a few parts including a slide stop and barrel bushing for $1000+ extra.  Dang thing was camming on one side of the barrel lugs!  Severn's offered to "fix" it but why would I throw good money after bad?  Had KC put a new barrel in the gun...

Slowly...

I watched the video a few times, including in slow motion.  I can now understand that with Jon's design, the barrel remains in battery for a longer time, due to that long flat surface.  It's not obvious to me (yet) why this would result in higher or lower slide velocity, or have an effect on "felt recoil".  is this this the reason why it's better to have the barrel in battery longer, to reduce felt recoil, or are there other things I'm missing?

mikemyers wrote:I watched the video a few times, including in slow motion.  I can now understand that with Jon's design, the barrel remains in battery for a longer time, due to that long flat surface.  It's not obvious to me (yet) why this would result in higher or lower slide velocity, or have an effect on "felt recoil".  is this this the reason why it's better to have the barrel in battery longer, to reduce felt recoil, or are there other things I'm missing?

I am figuring this out from Jon's description, but I believe that the explanation is as follows: The longer that the barrel is pressed up into the lugs during that initial rearward travel, the more the contact and friction slows the rearward movement of the slide.  That means that the slide is going to terminate the rearward motion with just a little less force.

paul

The difference is when it unlocks. The 1911 is what is called delayed blow back. Unlocking is done with recoil, when unlocked the pressure in the barrel then causes the empty shell case to push the slide back as it does with something like a .22. When unlocked sooner the pressure in the barrel is higher. Keeping in mind the pressure in the barrel remains for only a short time after the bullet exits the barrel so small movement causes a big change in pressure and therefore a change in slide speed.

Frank, the 1911 would be classed as a short-recoil automatic from an engineering perspective.  There is no mechanical disadvantage holding things together like the rollers on a HK rifle.  The residual gas pressure especially in bullseye loads is too low (Simple calculations indicate that the muzzle pressures on a 45 are about 1200 psi) and the guns would become ammunition sensitive.  Don't forget that at 1200 psi the case walls are shrinking away from the chamber so there's blowby at that point.

Wobbley wrote:Frank, the 1911 would be classed as a short-recoil automatic from an engineering perspective.  There is no mechanical disadvantage holding things together like the rollers on a HK rifle.  The residual gas pressure especially in bullseye loads is too low (Simple calculations indicate that the muzzle pressures on a 45 are about 1200 psi) and the guns would become ammunition sensitive.  Don't forget that at 1200 psi the case walls are shrinking away from the chamber so there's blowby at that point.

Upper lugs on the barrel that fit in the slide delay the slide momentum. Similar to h&k rollers but obviously not mechanical in same fashion. The camming unlocking of the barrel retards the slide on a 1911 when barrel is properly fit.
Jon

That Friend of mine that graduated from the Colorado School of Gunsmith explained to me the action of the 1911. True it's not as complicated as most delayed blow back as used in rifles but it is blow back that keeps the slide moving. Simple way to see this is to remove the extractor. Without the extractor how does the empty case get out of the chamber? I have completed an entire 1800 (CF and .45 of a 2700) with no extractor in the gun, well almost no extractor. Not sure when but the entire hook broke off the extractor sometime in CF slow fire and when I had a trapped brass during the first string of CF slow fire and seen the problem. I was able to complete the match with virtually no extractor. Most of the brass was on the bench or landed on the bench then rolled off. Though it only happened to me once I've seen it a few times when others had a similar problem. When I took it to my friend he explained why. In addition those that remember the old very dirty BullsEye powder will remember having residue all over their arm and all inside the rear of the 1911, Blowback. Furthermore when a compensator that directs some of the gas in an upward direction when the bullet leaves the barrel there must be about the same pressure exerted on the shell casing. Possibly the term Delayed Blow Back is not correct but the lug locks the slide from being pushed back because due to the pressure created is too much for direct blow back to be used on the area created by the diameter of the .45 case. It is then the pressure on the case that is pushing the slide back though there is some inertia developed by the slide being pushed back by the barrel yet the barrel stops moving after only 1/4"ish of movement.
 Another example, My son Frank Jr. purchased an almost new looking 1911. A Kimber that looked as if it just came out of the box but I suspect it was tinkered with. No matter what load was used it would not send the slide back enough to strip another from the magazine. We even tried some of that Hot TZZ ammo issued at Perry during the ball matches. We lowered the spring weight to 8 pounds (at least that was what Wolf had listed on the unopened package) TZZ ball would still have problems, a few did load but the slide would not lock back! I seen that a long link was installed. Replaced it another that was .005 shorter. My son thought I was crazy thinking that .005 would make a difference. To his surprise it functioned with our reloads plus I had to increase the spring to 13 pounds! So making the movement .005 shorter is going to shorten the barrel movement and the amount of inertia developed by the slide so where did the extra push come from? The lower lug was done like the one Jon showed that came from LB, I spray welded it with carbide and now resembles the one Jon did, it has been working great for the last 20 years.
 Yes it may not completely technically correct to say it's Delayed Blowback but the action is a form of delayed blowback and close enough for me.

It's delayed blowback.......that's why it's not a fixed barrel :p)
Jon

Froneck wrote:That Friend of mine that graduated from the Colorado School of Gunsmith explained to me the action of the 1911. True it's not as complicated as most delayed blow back as used in rifles but it is blow back that keeps the slide moving. Simple way to see this is to remove the extractor. Without the extractor how does the empty case get out of the chamber? I have completed an entire 1800 (CF and .45 of a 2700) with no extractor in the gun, well almost no extractor. Not sure when but the entire hook ...

Your experience is exactly the opposite of mine. When the tip broke off the extractor hook on my Springfield Armory 45, it instantly became a single shot pistol. The empty case would remain in the chamber, and the next round would jam up against it. Does this mean that in my case, by the time the gun unlocked, the bullet was long gone and there was no pressure to eject the empty?