Well, I did it.

First topic message reminder :

I'm a revolver guy.   Live and breath older (50's, 60's, and 70's) Smith & Wessons.   However, I have an old Series 70 Gold Cup that I bought used about 25 years ago.   Recently I got it out and put a few rounds thru it, only to find that the extractor was toast.   So, since I am not the kind of guy to just do halfway measures like simply replace the extractor, I just ordered the following: Kart Xact Fit NM barrel and bushing, EGW Oversize firing pin stop, and a Wilson Combat Fool Proof Extractor.   My local gunsmith says he has worked on Bullseye 1911's before, so I am entrusting the smithing work to him.   Should be interesting.   If anyone has any advice regarding what I should make sure the gunsmith understands, I am all ears.

Don

It's so confusing following what you ask.
Just wanting to tighten up a 1911,
 just a revolver guy,
 life after bullseye.
And now you bought a ransom rest and are building a base?

What was your question again????

Simple Jim, an accurate pistol.

Don

What do require for 'accurate'?
NRA D-1 BIANCHI TARGETS?
IDPA TARGETS?
B-8? B-6? PRECISION PISTOL TARGETS?
Accuracy X can give you 2" at 100 yds!

If you don't want people (or even just me) replying, just say so.  As for me, I find it to be an interesting discussion.  My first gun was a revolver, a duplicate of the gun that Dirty Harry used.  The first thing I bought for it was a scope, as in my mind I thought that would make me more accurate.  Nope.  Anyway, I like S&W revolvers, and I wish I had bought a Colt Python back when I could have.  I don't have the same "feelings" towards my 1911 - in my mind, you're right, it doesn't have the same "personality".  

I got my Colt Combat Commander about the same time, and enjoyed shooting it, but it had problems and nobody was ever able to shoot well with that gun.  I did what I think you're doing, bought the parts that I thought it needed, and it did get a little better.  Then I shot a relative's Wilson, and group after group, what I could do with the Wilson was groups 1/3 smaller than with the Colt.  At the time, my dream was to buy a Colt Gold Cup.  I never found an old one, and almost bought a new one, but instead I sent off my Colt back to the mothership (Colt Custom Shop) for re-grooving.  When it came back (two years later) it worked great - the weakest link was me, obviously, but Colt's test target made me think this gun was all I needed.  I should add, I wasn't ever doing "bullseye shooting", just shooting at paper targets, which to me seemed to be the same thing.  And after each session, with any gun, I would calculate the CEP, which gave a simple statement as to how accurate I was at that distance, with that gun, and that ammunition, on any particular day.

Meanwhile, a friend of mine found a fellow who was selling his Les Baer, and I bought it.  If I had this to do all over again, I wish I had just bought the new Gold Cup.  The LB is so tight I needed a heard of elephants just to rack the slide.  I could go on, but while it's a wonderful gun while I'm shooting it, it is too tight for me to work on.  The Colt was much easier.


You write "I just bought a Ransom Rest and am in the process of building a concrete shooting bench to mount it on, so once I get everything done I will post targets and give you all the details on the results of the build."


Unless you've tested your gun the way it is now using that ransom rest, whatever you do in the future won't tell you if the changes you made improved the gun, and if so, by how much.  The only thing that will show that, is if you compare your "before" targets with your "after" targets, keeping everything the same (ammo, distance, and so on.   It would be easier to understand what you are thinking, if you could write more about why you were not satisfied with the Gold Cup?  Did it misfire?  Was it inaccurate?  Did it jam?  If the extractor was damaged, do you know in what way?

One other thought - people taught me long ago that I shouldn't grip the 1911 the same way I did with a revolver.  I don't know all the reasons, but following their advice did improve my shooting with the gun considerably.  I almost did what you did, buy a Ransom Rest so I could separate the errors from me, from those from the gun.  


By the way, there are lots of forums around.  I even had my own forum (www.sgrid.com) with my own shooting sub-forum.  What makes a forum better or worse (to me) is the people using it, not the fancy page that people see.  This forum seems to have a lot higher percentage of knowledgeable people posting in it.  I also like The Highroad, the S&W Forums, the 1911 Forum, and a few more - but so many users in the other forums have interests that are so different than mine.  For the specific goal of shooting tighter groups on paper targets, this forum has the highest percentage of users with that interest.  It is probably as good a forum as any, and likely better, if your interest is mostly in accuracy, not speed or shooting multiple targets in a row.  

Gee, I think I've written too much.  I think you'll get better feedback here if you give a better description of what's going in.  Personally, I think you may be fixing the wrong thing, and even more so, you're converting a gun that I would have love to have bought into something I wouldn't even want.  To me, it's like taking a 1957 Chevy and installing lots of fancy parts.  I guess no harm is done, if you keep all the original parts, so it can be put back to "stock".


Please do post photos of the targets you're shooting now, before anyone works on the gun.  I think you will get some useful feedback.


Added later - one more question - how many days/weeks/months/years did your gunsmith tell you it would take to work on your gun?

I am quite confused in this topic. I wasn't going to respond but will be looking for photos of targets shot with that Gold Cup with a new barrel and bushing showing a group well under 1/2" at 50 yards.

james r chapman wrote:What do require for 'accurate'?
NRA D-1 BIANCHI TARGETS?
IDPA TARGETS?
B-8? B-6? PRECISION PISTOL TARGETS?
Accuracy X can give you 2" at 100 yds!

Jim,

Sort of like what a Judge said when asked what pornography is.   He said "I know it when I see it".

Don

Don,
There was a lot of air movement on that post.  Good luck with the pistol. Anytime will alter a pistol we start a bit of a journey. Sometimes good, sometimes not, but always an education.  I would like to hear how things work out.
Alex

Froneck wrote:I am quite confused in this topic. I wasn't going to respond but will be looking for photos of targets shot with that Gold Cup with a new barrel and bushing showing a group well under 1/2" at 50 yards.

Ah, Froneck, sarcasm on such a serious site as this doesn't become you.

Don

tceva wrote:Don,
There was a lot of air movement on that post.  Good luck with the pistol. Anytime will alter a pistol we start a bit of a journey. Sometimes good, sometimes not, but always an education.  I would like to hear how things work out.
Alex

Thanks Alex.  Good to hear a refreshing civil tone for once on this site.   I have received a couple PM's with good intentions also.   One guy said "Seems like Colts and working on them yourself, and shooting informally doesn't go over well with some people, so I stay out of the threads now days".   I think that tells you something.

Don

mikemyers wrote:If you don't want people (or even just me) replying, just say so.  As for me, I find it to be an interesting discussion. 

You write "I just bought a Ransom Rest and am in the process of building a concrete shooting bench to mount it on, so once I get everything done I will post targets and give you all the details on the results of the build."


Unless you've tested your gun the way it is now using that ransom rest, whatever you do in the future won't tell you if the changes you made improved the gun, and if so, by how much.  The only thing that will show that, is if you compare your "before" targets with your "after" targets, keeping everything the same (ammo, distance, and so on.   It would be easier to understand what you are thinking, if you could write more about why you were not satisfied with the Gold Cup?  Did it misfire?  Was it inaccurate?  Did it jam?  If the extractor was damaged, do you know in what way?

By the way, there are lots of forums around.  I even had my own forum (www.sgrid.com) with my own shooting sub-forum.  What makes a forum better or worse (to me) is the people using it, not the fancy page that people see.  This forum seems to have a lot higher percentage of knowledgeable people posting in it.  I also like The Highroad, the S&W Forums, the 1911 Forum, and a few more - but so many users in the other forums have interests that are so different than mine. 

Gee, I think I've written too much.  I think you'll get better feedback here if you give a better description of what's going in.  Personally, I think you may be fixing the wrong thing, and even more so, you're converting a gun that I would have love to have bought into something I wouldn't even want.  To me, it's like taking a 1957 Chevy and installing lots of fancy parts.  I guess no harm is done, if you keep all the original parts, so it can be put back to "stock".


Please do post photos of the targets you're shooting now, before anyone works on the gun.  I think you will get some useful feedback.


Added later - one more question - how many days/weeks/months/years did your gunsmith tell you it would take to work on your gun?

Hi Mike,

No problem hearing from you.   Regarding not having put the stock Gold Cup in the Ransom Rest, I don't care if the Kart barrel and bushing is 10% better or 50%, it will be better and it is something I have wanted to do for a number of years.   I will be keeping the original parts, so if after I'm gone if someone wants to restore it to original, have at it.   Like you, I also frequent the other sites that you mentioned.   The HighRoad is a particular favorite of mine.   Took the gun to the gunsmith last Monday.   He gave me no idea as to how long it would take.   He was in the process of glassbedding an M1A when I dropped it off.   I'm in no hurry.

Don

I'm not a gunsmith, but I read a lot.  I'm convinced that someone like Jon would do a LOT more to your gun than just making the barrel fit tighter.  On the other hand, maybe you don't need it to be as good as what Jon could do.

This is a link to a (very, very long) discussion of what I went through with my own Colt, complete with photos of the gun parts and targets.  You can see how much better it got from replacing the barrel bushing with one from Colt, and I measured the parts and the clearance before/after.

Honestly though, I was not satisfied, and sent it off to Colt with instructions to make it shoot well enough for what I was trying to do.  They also installed a Novak sight.   I think I have another discussion about that, but you might enjoy reading this old discussion, as it goes along and along and along.  

http://www.sgrid.com/forum/showthread.php?301-Maintenance-of-a-1911-pistol

USSR, you came to the right place to get answers from devoted and most qualified experts ( of which I am not ). These gentlemen are answering your questions from a deeply rich perspective. Listen closely and apply what you consider valuable.

Mike,

As I've said numerous times, there is a reason why I can't use Jon to do the work.   If you send me a PM I will tell you.

Don

New York to Kalifornicate. That tells me enough! Lol

james r chapman wrote:New York to Kalifornicate. That tells me enough! Lol

Nobody ever said you are a dummy, Jim.

Don

USSR, years ago I had a 70 series Gold Cup. It was stock. I had been shooting Bullseye for about two years. The gun was Ransom rested and would only shoot about a 270 NMC score. Had I kept it I would have done what you are planning. Those parts you are going to use installed correctly will yield likely a fine gun. I made expert and was league champion within two years of having the proper tool. The proper gun with proper practice did the trick

Keithcrc wrote:USSR, years ago I had a 70 series Gold Cup. It was stock. I had been shooting Bullseye for about two years. The gun was Ransom rested and would only shoot about a 270 NMC score. Had I kept it I would have done what you are planning. Those parts you are going to use installed correctly will yield likely a fine gun. I made expert and was league champion within two years of having the proper tool. The proper gun with proper practice did the trick

Thanks Keithcrc.   Although I won't be shooting Bullseye, I also believe that the parts I am adding will make for a better gun than the stock Gold Cup.

Don

I totally understand your drive to Improve your pistol with no real end goal.  I often have the same issue. The urge to collect and improve on pistols is often in conflict with my improvement in shooting. But that’s a really big part of the fun of it for me.

I wanted an S 70 gold cup for a very long time, and when I finally got one, and upgraded it endlessly to the point of pretty much perfection, I ended up selling it because I was still dissatisfied. The base quality of the colt parts was pretty disappointing compared to new 1911s. Gorgeous blueing but that’s about it.
Don’t get turned off by snarky responses on here. We are a lively, thickskinned bunch.
And I’m sure we all wish Jon did not live in California. Huge pain in the ass for him and half the guys on the forum!

That "urge" is pretty difficult to ignore - there are so many things that I thought would be good, or useful, or cool, or whatever, which I get and they sit unused because I'm working on other things (lately my ability to use those other things).  

I'm confused by something people here keep saying, that the gun that I wanted to buy SO badly long ago is now considered inadequate compared to other readily available guns.  I used to read how great those old Gold Cups were - but maybe I didn't read back then how they had been modified to make them that great.

This leads to a question I've had while reading this thread.  For an "average" shooter at Bullseye (whatever that means), how much percentage of an increase in ability would result from taking that standard Gold Cup, and making into absolutely the best possible 45 target gun, with no concern as to the cost?  Suppose the shooter was getting three inch groups at whatever distance.  How much of a group size would be realized by making the gun "perfect"?

mikemyers wrote:That "urge" is pretty difficult to ignore - there are so many things that I thought would be good, or useful, or cool, or whatever, which I get and they sit unused because I'm working on other things (lately my ability to use those other things).  

I'm confused by something people here keep saying, that the gun that I wanted to buy SO badly long ago is now considered inadequate compared to other readily available guns.  I used to read how great those old Gold Cups were - but maybe I didn't read back then how they had been modified to make them that great.

This leads to a question I've had while reading this thread.  For an "average" shooter at Bullseye (whatever that means), how much percentage of an increase in ability would result from taking that standard Gold Cup, and making into absolutely the best possible 45 target gun, with no concern as to the cost?  Suppose the shooter was getting three inch groups at whatever distance.  How much of a group size would be realized by making the gun "perfect"?

This has been beaten to death in a million posts. For the new shooter i say come out with what you have, as you become interested in the sport do a little tweaking.  A lot can be gained by having the most accurate guns and ammo.  If fundamentals aren't there you will not realize the benefits of said equipment. 

The 10 ring at 50 yards is roughly 3" if your gun shoots the 10 ring from a fixture what does your hold induce? Most people would want a gun that can group in the X ring at 50yards shot after shot vs one that is just a 10 ring gun.

There was a post where someone did a really thorough mathematical analysis of exactly what going from a 3" to 1.5" gun or something like that would equate to in scores, for each skill level of shooter (based on %'s). Its in the archives somewhere.
It pretty much answers your question exactly, of what changing to the best gun available will do to your scores.

Just remember, 66% of your score is on the short line, where just about any stock 1911 is capable of perfect scores. Trigger is everything. It could be a gun capable of shooting perfect .45" groups @50yds, but with a trigger that causes you to jerk shots it wont matter. So a good trigger is almost more important than mechanical accuracy mods, because it will equate to actual accuracy on target.

I had an extremely accurate Gold Cup. Then I shot everything thru it for 30 years. It was great for IDPA, whatever run and shoot before that and killing pop cans. Then I started shooting Bullseye again. All those years in a holster I had turned it into a real klunker. When it came time to make it a real pistol again I went with a local gunsmith. The smith told me what I needed and I wrote him out a check. Now I have a beautiful (a little holster wear) and accurate again Gold Cup. I understand about keeping the old guns at their best. I also work on my own pistols but wanted it done by one of the best. FYI my local gunsmith is Roddy Toyota.

Surprised your giant hams fit around that little Fung grip!

It is kind of funny. The above picture is with Herrett's on the pistol. They were a little tight. But the Fungs are bigger and fit nice.