Bullet size and load

I have to shoot lead during winter leagues due to range rules "no jacketed or plated ammo".

I am having some leading issues with my 38 Super.  I've tried 2 different lead bullets* and several lube combo's.  My current .356 bullet loads are a nice light 2.8gr of WST and are very accurate, BUT the group starts to open up (still acceptable) at around 100 shots.  To clean I soak it in Kroil in my ultrasonic cleaner and it still needs chore boy to get it clean.  With the 45/45/10 lube it's much easier to clean but the leading is near the same - 1/2 to 3/4 the length of the barrel.  This type of leading usually indicates gas is getting by the bullet.

This is an extremely fast twist barrel (1-10), maybe too fast for lead? I'm going to try increasing the bullet size from .356 to .357.  I slugged the barrel and it is a "loose" .355, so I should be OK with the .357 bullet because it will be <.002" larger than the bore.

The questions:  Do I need to be concerned with the bigger .357 bullet even though it's <.002" larger than the bore?  Should I start with the same 2.8gr of WST load or should I drop it or maybe even raise it 0.2gr?

If this cures the leading but impacts accuracy I can live with the cleaning requirement of the .356 bullet during winter league and shoot Jacketed in the summer.
- Dave

* Started with the Magnus 147gr FPBB (most accurate) & the Dardus 126gr FBSWC, both .356, I measured them to be sure.

In my experience the 10 twist barrels do not lead in .38 spl. I've used both hbwc and solid cast bullets varying from 2.6-3.0 gr of BE & WST. They are .355 bores and do not like bullets that are.357. They don't lead but accuracy sucks.if your barrel is leading over half the bore......how smooth is rifling? By the way I've welded up old rough looking Colt barrels in 45 acp and they don't lead. So I don't feel like I'm much help but thought I'd share my results. Now just wondered what brand barrel and how does lead angle into rifling look? I lnow some Kart barrels get installed and not finish reamed and will/can lead.
Jon

Your issue could be the hardness and size of your bullet. Going to .357 could help, and probably won't have to change your load, but as always it's trial and error.  .001 or .002 over bore diameter is considered optimal for all cast bullets, pistol and rifle. Sealing the bore is necessary.   

Missouri bullets are "hardness optimized" and have worked well for me.

 http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=26

You mention 45-45-10 lube. Are you adding this lube to your bullets? It's not necessary as the lubes provided are of excellent quality. 

There is a cast bullet forum with tons of info.  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php

Jon Eulette wrote:In my experience the 10 twist barrels do not lead in .38 spl. I've used both hbwc and solid cast bullets varying from 2.6-3.0 gr of BE & WST. They are .355 bores and do not like bullets that are.357. They don't lead but accuracy sucks.if your barrel is leading over half the bore......how smooth is rifling? By the way I've welded up old rough looking Colt barrels in 45 acp and they don't lead. So I don't feel like I'm much help but thought I'd share my results. Now just wondered what brand barrel and how does lead angle into rifling look? I lnow some Kart barrels get installed and not finish reamed and will/can lead.
Jon

Jon,
Clark barrel, rifling "looks" smooth using a bore scope.  I'll check the lead angle.  Hoping for better results with the .357 bullets.  I'm having both the bullets I've already tried sized to .357.  I may add a 158gr .357 SWC to the mix as well.

Thinking of shooting 1,000 rounds of Jacked ammo through it to see if that "burnishes" the bore.
I may also try dropping the charge of the .356 bullets to 2.6gr of WST, but I will have to drop recoil spring rate. 

Thanks,
Dave

Can you use coated bullets like Bayou bullets, I use them in my 45acp 1911 and they work really well.

troystaten wrote:Can you use coated bullets like Bayou bullets, I use them in my 45acp 1911 and they work really well.

I have shot a lot of coated bullets till I tried them on the long line.  They shot fine for IDPA but at 50 yards I never found any that grouped worth a darn.  Same with plated.  Don

When you said winter league I assumed 50 foot indoors.  Everything is definitely more challenging at 50 yards.

can't say we've had much leading issues with  a kart or KKM super barrel using the Dardus bullet coated with 45-45-10.  Had some initially in my kart's throat but the 45-45-10 resolved that.  we run 3.6-3.8 BE with that 126 gr bullet. that said, both of our barrels are 1-16 twist and we run .356 dia in both pistols as they are .355 bore.

you should have no pressure issues simply going up to .357. I tried some in my kart without issue other than they didn't shoot well as Jon noted.

I shot HOT loads with Hornady swaged 140gn 0.358" Frontier lead and have no leading in any of my .38 supers.
1) I have found NO issues going from 0.355" to 0.357-0.358" lead bullets in 9x19, 9x21, and .38 super, with the larger bullets often being the most accurate.
2) WHERE the leading is will often help diagnose the problem:
If the leading starts near the start of the rifling, that usually means the bullet is either too small or too HARD
If the leading only follows the leading edge of the rifling, that usually means the bullet is too soft or moving to fast.
If the leading is not at the beginning but start later down the barrel, that usually means lubricant failure.
3) It doesn't matter what the gun experts do, you have to find what YOUR guns wants. Some barrels will happily shoot bullets the same diameter as the groove diameter and others want 0.002-0.003" larger. The standard recommendation of 0.001" over groove diameter works well for 90+% of barrels.
4) People may not like it, but one of the best solutions I have found for leading with commercial bullets is to apply a very light coating of Lee Liquid Alox. 45/45/10 is the same idea, but the "pure" Alox does a better job.
5) I still find that 0.357" jacketed bullets are almost always more accurate than 0.355" jacketed bullets in all my 9x19 guns.
Simply scrubbing with ALL COPPER Chore-Boy is the second best way to remove lead. The best is my Outer's "electrolytic plating" unit (whatever the name is) that was discontinued.

Magload wrote:

troystaten wrote:Can you use coated bullets like Bayou bullets, I use them in my 45acp 1911 and they work really well.

I have shot a lot of coated bullets till I tried them on the long line.  They shot fine for IDPA but at 50 yards I never found any that grouped worth a darn.  Same with plated.  Don

Mag load, what level I'd accuracy at 50 yards are you looking for? My cast and powder coated shoot 2-2.5" at 50 yards from two different guns.  Yes zeros may shoot better, but I'm cheap...

10sandxs wrote:

Magload wrote:

troystaten wrote:Can you use coated bullets like Bayou bullets, I use them in my 45acp 1911 and they work really well.

I have shot a lot of coated bullets till I tried them on the long line.  They shot fine for IDPA but at 50 yards I never found any that grouped worth a darn.  Same with plated.  Don

Mag load, what level I'd accuracy at 50 yards are you looking for? My cast and powder coated shoot 2-2.5" at 50 yards from two different guns.  Yes zeros may shoot better, but I'm cheap...

I would have to dig up the groups I shot but if I could get the results that you get I would be a happy camper.  I did not work to see if I could change loads to improve the groups because others on this site say they were not good on the LL.  I have used Berry's, Missouri, mostly in the coated and X Tremes in the plated.  I am with you I am cheap also and shooting 5 days a week and being retired cheap is better.  The biggest share of my practice is indoors at 50 feet or 20 yards and the coated work just fine.  On the SL outdoors the coated were shooting fine also.  I used to be on the S&W forum and a lot of my friends on there were doing their own coating.  I have to many hobbies so never started casting myself.  The lack of cheap lead in my area also kept me from getting into it.  Looking at my supplies I got around a 1,000 DESWs plated 148gr 38s from X Treme so maybe I will give them a try again.  Thank you for posting your results I see that it is time for the Ransom Rest and more testing.  Don

Tested .357 sized bullet today and the results were just as accurate as the .356 @ 25yd (X ring) and NO LEADING after 100 rounds.

Remember this is being set up for indoor matches where lead is required @ 25yd max.  I am going to test several combos of .357 bullets and different charges @ 50yd just to see where it ends up, I'm feeling positive.  My fallback outdoors are JHP @ 50yd.
- Dave