Concentration?

by davekp 1/2/2018, 6:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

After reading the "flow" topic, and much pondering, the question I have is:
During the execution phase of the shot (trigger operation) is it better to concentrate on a steady, rearward trigger pull while letting the subconscious take over sight/target alignment OR concentrate on sight/target alignment and let the subconscious execute the trigger operation?

by Chris Miceli 2/12/2018, 12:03 pm

CR10X wrote:I've watched this thread develop and then kinda wander off.

How about this just to keep this discussion going.

I sometimes think that Process, Concentration, Focus, and Observing as just steps to get to the best Flow or Zen state, or Subconscious whatever that helps produce the best acceptable shot for you.

Basically, anything that can be described as Concentration, Focus or Process is simply a tool to get all the different parts of shooting understood and accepted in order to perform acceptable shot where all the parts come together at the optimum time.

So, maybe train on the parts, even concentration or focus on whatever, but also just shoot and see what happens. If its working well, then wouldn't that be the best way to shoot, even in a match?

Everyone has to start somewhere. The question is, how far are you willing to go (trying new things) to see how far you can go?

  A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

I work on keeping the trigger moving while lowering into the black, it seems to help make for good shots.

by robert84010 2/12/2018, 12:19 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:

I work on keeping the trigger moving while lowering into the black, it seems to help make for good shots.

Isn't it amazing how many x's happen when you are NOT TRYING to make x's happen.

by davekp 2/13/2018, 7:44 am

I don't understand the "lowering into the black" thing. First off, are we talking about rapid fire? Or slow fire? 22cal or 45? Anyway, even in rapid fire, that means you are using almost 2 seconds to accomplish the trigger execution. Seems way too long. I can easily perform the trigger execution in 1 second. This allows 1 second to align the sights on the x-ring. Easily accomplished. ????

by Oleg G 2/13/2018, 8:53 am

Fresh from the Brian Zins class, where he spent a lot of time on the "lowering into the black thing."
The idea behind it is: every time you initiate trigger squeeze you disturb sight alignment and sight picture. However minute the disturbance is, it is present.
Therefore, initiate trigger movement BEFORE you achieve your desired sight alignment and before you acquire the sight picture - i.e. start the trigger moving as you lower the sights into the black, and maintain the movement as an uninterrupted action while the sights settle there. Study your trigger(s) to know when and how it breaks. The end of the trigger movement will occur as your sights (dot) are setting in the desired sight picture. If anything does not look/feel right abort the shot - that's the hardest part.
This is best done with the roll trigger and does not work as well with the crisp trigger, because it is more difficult to feel, study and learn its movement.

The above process applies to SF, TF and RF. It also applies to any caliber. Three stages, one process. Obviously, you should not abort shots during TF and RF. In sustained fire, trigger movement starts during recoil management.

Anyway, that is what Brian is teaching and it seems to make sense when applied to actual shooting.

by davekp 2/13/2018, 6:56 pm

Ok, so he is taking an appreciable amount of time to execute the trigger operation.
Nobody much talks about the length of time it takes for trigger execution- from initiation until the shot breaks. I'm thinking if it is too long there is more chance to start and stop- rather than keeping the trigger moving.
The video mentioned here a few months ago that was an interview with Adam Sokoloski (sp?) where he discussed his experience with switching from right to left handed shooting included his observation that he needed to speed up his trigger execution for left handed. So how long should it take?

by Chris Miceli 2/13/2018, 6:59 pm

davekp wrote:Ok, so he is taking an appreciable amount of time to execute the trigger operation.
Nobody much talks about the length of time it takes for trigger execution- from initiation until the shot breaks. I'm thinking if it is too long there is more chance to start and stop- rather than keeping the trigger moving.
The video mentioned here a few months ago that was an interview with Adam Sokoloski (sp?) where he discussed his experience with switching from right to left handed shooting included his observation that he needed to speed up his trigger execution for left handed. So how long should it take?

depends on the shooter and the the day of the week.

by TomH_pa 2/13/2018, 9:22 pm

Again from the clinic.... He told us usually no more than 7 seconds from lift to shot break or abort
So not really an appreciable amount of time
He didn't advocate using a timer or anything like that....just a guideline

by Sa-tevp 2/13/2018, 9:43 pm

Oleg G wrote:Fresh from the Brian Zins class, where he spent a lot of time on the "lowering into the black thing."
The idea behind it is: every time you initiate trigger squeeze you disturb sight alignment and sight picture. However minute the disturbance is, it is present.
Therefore, initiate trigger movement BEFORE you achieve your desired sight alignment and before you acquire the sight picture - i.e. start the trigger moving as you lower the sights into the black, and maintain the movement as an uninterrupted action while the sights settle there. Study your trigger(s) to know when and how it breaks. The end of the trigger movement will occur as your sights (dot) are setting in the desired sight picture. If anything does not look/feel right abort the shot - that's the hardest part.
This is best done with the roll trigger and does not work as well with the crisp trigger, because it is more difficult to feel, study and learn its movement.

The above process applies to SF, TF and RF. It also applies to any caliber. Three stages, one process. Obviously, you should not abort shots during TF and RF. In sustained fire, trigger movement starts during recoil management.

Anyway, that is what Brian is teaching and it seems to make sense when applied to actual shooting.

That definitely got printed and added to my shooting notebook. My air pistol coach taught the same thing.

by davekp 2/14/2018, 6:38 am

TomH_pa wrote:Again from the clinic.... He told us usually no more than 7 seconds from lift to shot break or abort
So not really an appreciable amount of time
He didn't advocate using a timer or anything like that....just a guideline

What I'm talking about is the time from when you start moving the trigger until the shot breaks.
The 7 second from lift to shot break includes the raising of the pistol, settling of the hold, and trigger execution.
Rereading the AMU manual, it says "release of the trigger (execution) should take no more than 2 to 5 seconds."
But any longer than 2 seconds is too slow for rapid fire.
If you require 2 seconds to execute the trigger, then I guess you need to begin when you are moving toward the black. But I think a 1 second execution is attainable- so do the really good shooters take 2 seconds to execute? Or are they doing it faster?

by Ed Hall 2/14/2018, 10:33 am

My suggestion is to develop a trigger operation that takes the same amount of time for all aspects: dry fire without looking, dry fire against blank wall, dry fire with target and live fire on blank and bull targets. This should be a determined, rather fast, but short of a jerk/yank operation.

You might like to look over one of my articles:

Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation

Session #4: Learning the Trigger addresses what to work toward.

In coaching sessions at the range, I have the shooters dry fire train in four steps looking for a steady image of the gun/sights:

1. on the bench dry fire watching where the gun is pointing
2. on the bench dry fire watching the gun
3. on a blank area of the target dry fire using the sighting system
4. on the bull dry firing using the sighting system

If any of these steps causes a different feel or a slower trigger, go back to the first step.

The overall object of this exercise is to learn to have an uninterrupted trigger operation, independent from what you see.

by davekp 2/14/2018, 2:08 pm

Ed's article pretty much answered it: 1-2 seconds for execution.

by Bullseye_Stan 2/15/2018, 6:41 am

When I recognized how to clean a timed fire target (and since starting back last summer haven't done that), it was trigger control - or perhaps a better description was trigger pre-load and constant pressure. Before the sights were settled but the gun was near the target, trigger pressure began. That continued until the shot fired. The sights were alighted as best they could, but it was the trigger cadence and focus that improved my performance (i.e. concentrating on the trigger pressure). This was with a dot or with iron sights - shooting a .22 @ B-3 NRA 50' targets.

Confidence and feel made a difference, but it was simply shooting more that helped me. I expect there are some who can shoot great after a few hundred rounds - not me, even when I 'know' what I should be doing (or know what used to work for me). There is probably a 'faster' way to get results, but I haven't figured that out and all the books on psychology, metal imaging, or dry firing don't seem to do it. Certainly, YMMV.

These days, I see a glimmering of hope with an occasional 85 slow fire and 95 timed @ 25 yards. Strangely enough, I've shot better targets with my .45 than my .22. But, that may be because I do not change anything (or very little) with the .45. If I concentrated on the front sight, carefully squeezing the trigger and expecting the pistol to fire, I would never make it through rapid fire.

IMO, part of Bullseye (or precision pistol, etc) is finding out what works and sticking with that. Unfortunately, what works great for one person won't work well for another. I suppose if it did, everyone could readily be a High Master classified shooter and all this would be a bit boring. I'm sure there are some that disagree with any and/or all of the above - and that's OK. Cool

p.s. I'm currently working through the USMC Pistol Training Workbook and expect that will improve my performance.

by Aprilian 2/15/2018, 9:18 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation

Thanks Ed! your step by step is just what I need.

In session one tonight, I realized that both my stance and my grip were not cooperating - so I reset them both and now the dot comes up centered with no strain on the rest of my body. I'll work on that for a few days before moving on to session 2.

It's strange how I've read your article a couple times before, but now I was finally ready to work through it.

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