Will Camp Perry Be Back to "Normal" This Year?

I missed the National Matches last year but I remember that there was some sort of rift between the NRA and the CMP that resulted in a split schedule for the pistol phase at Camp Perry. Are they back to business as usual? The schedule for this year looks like it did a few years ago.

Hope so! Last year there was no on-base food other than food trucks. No NRA store, just a couple of tables with mostly prior year stuff. Many vendors missing. Disappointing.

The CMP is adding smallbore this year which may attract more vendors.

CMP is doing smallbore at Perry while the NRA is holding the smallbore National Matches in Indiana?

NRA JULY 19-30 smallbore

Orpanaut wrote:CMP is doing smallbore at Perry while the NRA is holding the smallbore National Matches in Indiana?

Yup... and probably have more competitors at Perry than Indiana.

I'm going to stick with my theory that the NRA is working diligently to destroy Bullseye shooting and move towards 3-gun and action sports.  Bullseye is a contest of precision and skill and it takes six hours to shoot a 270 round match.  If you shoot 270 rounds of 3-gun you are finished in five minutes or less.  It may have taken six hours, but you spent four hours picking up other peoples brass and walking around geared up pretending you are an "Operator" of some sort.

3-gun is more of a shooting fashion show requiring new equipment, holsters, guns and trendy stuff to stay stylish and keep up with the cool kids.  Companies that pay the NRA millions to shill for them want the NRA pushing equipment intensive sports that require new equipment annually to stay cool enough to play.

If you win the Nationals in Bullseye you get $500 bucks.  If you finish 143rd at the 3 gun nationals you win a new bass boat, thousands in cash and three new guns.  Worse, entry fees are about the same for both.

lonegunman wrote:I'm going to stick with my theory that the NRA is working diligently to destroy Bullseye shooting and move towards 3-gun and action sports.

Not a competitor, and can't speak from experience. But remember the politics and debate around smallbore and the formation of the American Smallbore Shooting Association. Time for something similar in Bullseye?

Don't reinvent anything, don't write or change rules. Just focus on what can be done to improve Bullseye shooting.

Seriously drop any derision of 3-gun or other sports, look at them as a source of new participants. Don't sour grapes their participation numbers or prize pool. Recognise that their sport grew from the ground up as Bullseye was once a ground up sport. Now how to get the grassroots of bullseye rebuilt and to grow again? Fewer old guys devoted to reloading and full days of competition and more firing lines of younger participants trying their hand with the equipment they have. 

At the local level, encourage marksmanship program participation.
Run friendly matches and encourage people with stock firearms and factory ammunition to give it their best.
Run more serious matches.
Heavily pressure nearby clubs to begin the same as above.

At the higher levels? What is missing and how could the regional and national levels be improved?
The NRA is slow reporting results? Build a parallel system that will ensure the NRA continues to compile scores but will report faster to the competitors.

The practical shooting sports have  a huge international resource (practiscore apps and website) that grew from the efforts of one man running competitions for one (albeit large) club. Read in another thread that someone at NRA competitions knows the app and would like to see the NRA develop something similar. I can only shake my head and ask why not just partner with them and roll out ASAP. Heck, the NRA could help improve the practical shooting side of the app and include all other sports.

Absent the NRA doing it, someone with Bullseye experience and passion could work with the developer of Practiscore to include Bullseye and use it and promote it.

With a critical mass of local competition, find an ammo manufacturer to sponsor and support Bullseye. Need to start getting younger participants and those that don't want to take up reloading as part of their hobby. Supply ammunition as inexpensively as possible similar to how the .22 Steel Challenge supplied ammunition (last time I read about their program was during the 22lr drought).

All easier said than done perhaps. And I'll admit I'm much better at talking about change an ideas than getting them put to action. And I also realise my inexperience in competitive shooting is an impediment to being taken seriously. But I think the message of positive thinking and being ready to support an effort to improve things is very important. 

So I figure it's just best to throw my thoughts out there and hope someone more experience or who has the necessary skills to take action might read and consider them.

I don't think there's room on the road and they sure aren't on a military facility.

Slartybartfast wrote:


Not a competitor, and can't speak from experience. But remember the politics and debate around smallbore and the formation of the American Smallbore Shooting Association. Time for something similar in Bullseye?

Don't reinvent anything, don't write or change rules. Just focus on what can be done to improve Bullseye shooting.

Seriously drop any derision of 3-gun or other sports, look at them as a source of new participants. Don't sour grapes their participation numbers or prize pool. Recognize that their sport grew from the ground up as Bullseye was once a ground up sport. Now how to get the grassroots of bullseye rebuilt and to grow again? Fewer old guys devoted to reloading and full days of competition and more firing lines of younger participants trying their hand with the equipment they have. 

"not a competitor", But apparently an expert at telling people how to be better competitors.   I ran matches at a local club for a decade, so I have some experience running matches.  I had solid participation for years, filling the firing line several times a year. I took the time to find sponsors who donated prizes and had free lunch at the major matches twice a year.
I have donated ammunition to anyone who wants to try a ball gun match for twenty years.   To this day I remind match directors from other places in my state that I have extra ball guns and ammo for new shooters.  All they had to do was pay their own 10 buck fee and shoot. Occasionally we get one guy.  

I've shot 3 gun, I get the allure.  Good prizes, lots of socialization, running with guns, easy to hit targets and stuff moves and dings. One of my former co-workers and friends is a 3gun and ISPC guy, he would be a "Pro" or Grand Master at one or the other.  He was utterly convinced he was SWAT or easily a top of the line spec ops hero.  He never served a day in any kind of uniform other than mechanics coveralls.  He could run 400yds and swim across a bath tub at low tide but he "was practically a SEAL".  He is far from alone in that mindset. I take exception to imaginary SEALS. 

Yes, 3 gun and action sports are gaining and popular, not uncommon in sports.  We not longer watch rowing, boxing or horse races, it happens.  But, some of what the NRA does is deliberate and after ten trips to the Nationals, I am justified in my opinion.  The conditions at Camp Perry are dismal, more than one year entire firing lines have been in ankle deep, rank smelling water.  The target turner systems were old when the Army donated them to the NRA in the 1960's and are barely maintained.  The facilities are spartan at best, they make as little effort as possible to be helpful.  Example? While sitting out a dangerous lighting storm on one side of the NRA building I saw this one personally.  A guy filling out team cards was told to "go around the building and drop them off", he asked if he could walk thru instead because of the storm.( he was standing next to the doorway in question)  The lady at the window, laughed in his face and said," NO way", then said he had 5 mins before they close, shut her window and left him.  Four guys who drove two days to get to Ohio got this customer service.  One of them finally said,"F#@k it" grabbed the cards, stuffed them under his coat and bolted thru the storm to make the deadline.  Letting that one guy walk thru their precious building would have made him a fan for life, I doubt this did.

If you want to be the leader in shooting sports in America you should not require thousands of your members to form a new organization to do your job for you because you are no longer enamored with a shooting sport your organization created.  Just my opinion.  Next December when I get my Sectional results for 2018, it might change.

lonegunman wrote:I'm going to stick with my theory that the NRA is working diligently to destroy Bullseye shooting and move towards 3-gun and action sports.  Bullseye is a contest of precision and skill and it takes six hours to shoot a 270 round match.  If you shoot 270 rounds of 3-gun you are finished in five minutes or less.  It may have taken six hours, but you spent four hours picking up other peoples brass and walking around geared up pretending you are an "Operator" of some sort.

3-gun is more of a shooting fashion show requiring new equipment, holsters, guns and trendy stuff to stay stylish and keep up with the cool kids.  Companies that pay the NRA millions to shill for them want the NRA pushing equipment intensive sports that require new equipment annually to stay cool enough to play.

If you win the Nationals in Bullseye you get $500 bucks.  If you finish 143rd at the 3 gun nationals you win a new bass boat, thousands in cash and three new guns.  Worse, entry fees are about the same for both.

So sad, but so true. The lack of attention paid by the NRA is allowing B/E to die a slow death as each competitor of days gone by passes into B/E heaven.

lonegunman wrote:"not a competitor", But apparently an expert at telling people how to be better competitors. 

 
Just my view from the outside. Not telling people how to be better competitors, just hoping a sport I'm interested in manages to hang on.
From your view it seems incredible the sport still exists.
The NRA doesn't seem to be doing any great favors.

Still meet for beers with the old guys from the precision club I'm nominally a range officer at. Can't do any real duties. The city kicked us out and closed the range.

So I practice precision pistol at a club many of them deride as spray and pray and full of cowboys.

The complaints and derision aren't helping them get a new club not will it attract younger shooters if they succeed.

The sport seems in grave trouble if hoping the NRA will improve things from the top down is the only thing done.

And here is Canada I'm having trouble finding sign of life of any competition that isn't practical shooting.

I was a High Power competitor,

while I thought it was neater than neat to stay in the huts on my few visits to Perry (both the old spider filled ragged huts and newly renovated huts) the place could have used some more investment in infrastructure

IIRC the rifle ranges have new Pits, and may be going electronic if they have not already

however

I am sure both CMP and NRA would rather sign up a Garand Match, Springfield Match or other games match person than a High Power competitor,
simply cause they wills show up in mass,  shop the North Store hard, and go home after a few days,
seems High Power, like apparently Bullseye, is not a fast growing sport,


another however,

maybe one day, that 3 gunning seal operator type wanna be will realize his/her knees are shot, the young operator types are faster, and they still want to compete in a shooting sport,, 

Bullseye may fit that bill, and they should be recruited,


just another outside looking in observation, your mileage may vary

lyman1903 wrote:Bullseye may fit that bill, and they should be recruited,

In the meantime, why not have a reduced Bullseye style competition alongside 3gun and IPSC events.
Run a CF competition, at 25y, with timed and rapid and divisions (something they'll be more familiar with than slow fire) that follow the same equipment divisions as the main event.
And have a prominent full display of the requirements, results, and records of full Bullseye competition. With the schedule of local events...
Hand out prizes, even just bragging rights for the CF precision portion at the main event and the competitive among them are likely to make the precision portion a permanent fixture and might migrate to full bullseye competition.

I'm a beginning BE competitor with one Camp Perry appearance.  The firing lines were a bit dated, but military shooters are certainly familiar with good/bad ranges.  As a civilian, I can't really comment on high-level facilities other than CMP Talladega (beautiful facility).  From recent media stories - the current renovations may change aging perceptions (http://thecmp.org/camp-perry-sees-major-improvements-to-historical-buildings-in-2018/)  Here's hoping I get to see the 2018 results in person.

lyman1903 wrote:I was a High Power competitor,

while I thought it was neater than neat to stay in the huts on my few visits to Perry (both the old spider filled ragged huts and newly renovated huts) the place could have used some more investment in infrastructure



just another outside looking in observation, your mileage may vary

One has to remember that neither CMP nor NRA have any authority over the infrastructure of Camp Perry.  It belongs to the spState of Ohio for their National Guard.  So the facilities are the facilities the OHNG agrees to supply the CMP and NRA.  The huts should have been replaced decades ago.  There isn’t a lot of money available for better facilities.

Wobbley wrote:

lyman1903 wrote:I was a High Power competitor,

while I thought it was neater than neat to stay in the huts on my few visits to Perry (both the old spider filled ragged huts and newly renovated huts) the place could have used some more investment in infrastructure



just another outside looking in observation, your mileage may vary

One has to remember that neither CMP nor NRA have any authority over the infrastructure of Camp Perry.  It belongs to the spState of Ohio for their National Guard.  So the facilities are the facilities the OHNG agrees to supply the CMP and NRA.  The huts should have been replaced decades ago.  There isn’t a lot of money available for better facilities.

agreed on the facilities, as far as where to stay,
and I did not mind the huts,
we had a cheappo AC unit that worked well enough and plenty of coolers to keep the beverages cold,


you would think that the CMP/NRA would open a partnership with Ohio/Perry to update the ranges and range equipment tho

lyman1903 wrote:

you would think that the CMP/NRA would open a partnership with Ohio/Perry to update the ranges and range equipment tho

Well since CMP is now openly competing with NRA form”National championship Matches” , that probably won’t happen anytime soon. Once NRA finds a new venue for Bullseye, it’ll move out of Perry too.

just booked lodging....was told unlikely that the mess hall will be open this year.

I don't think Camp Perry will ever be back to "normal", but I'm ok with that.

When I first went to Perry (1982) I heard about how things were not like they use to be. How the Military ran the line and would score and change the targets for you. My first year the huts we only had 1 light bulb, no air conditioner and no refrigerator, you could only use fans. Yes there were more vendors and the NRA supported the shooters better.  "will we ever go back to normal"

Later on people were looking back to when the CMP quit giving out ammo to for the Ball matches. "will we ever go back to normal"

It's true that things have changed, some for the good and some not so good.

GOOD Things

The huts are better, heated and air conditioning, more lights
Better drainage around the huts and the ranges (not perfect but better)
Awnings behind the ready line (protection from the rain and sun)
CMP gives out medals for EIC matches
Air gun range is totally awesome!!!!


Not so good

Not having a good mess hall to eat at
Weather is still a problem

Camp Perry has changed some every year since I first went there, just like we have all changed some. Where else can you find such great friends and have fun doing a sport that you like.

Normal to me is looking forward to going back each year and shooting my best with whatever new challenges Camp Perry will throw at us.

Neil

As for mess halls, many small and some large active bases do not have mess halls at least in the traditional sense. Base dining facilities are now more like company cafeterias.

Wobbley wrote:As for mess halls, many small and some large active bases do not have mess halls at least in the traditional sense. Base dining facilities are now more like company cafeterias.

Last year that was not available either to we civilians.

Chris Miceli wrote:...was told unlikely that the mess hall will be open this year.

Great

rreid wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:...was told unlikely that the mess hall will be open this year.

Great

Food trucks by commercial row though