The Noptel system

Any first hand experiences and opinions on the system and the support behind it will be much appreciated.

http://www.brenzovich.com/noptel.htm

Did extensive research 3 years ago and went with SCATT WS1 because it's cordless.  SCATT has added the MX-02 and SCATT basic since then, both worth a look.
- Dave

Thanks Dave. 
I misread their literature which mentions wireless but now I see that it is Bluetooth for the professional Expert system only.
Has SCATT contributed to your shooting and which model is the best value?

Amati wrote:Thanks Dave. 
I misread their literature which mentions wireless but now I see that it is Bluetooth for the professional Expert system only.
Has SCATT contributed to your shooting and which model is the best value?

For me the big decision was the size of the sensor mounted on the pistol that's why I picked the SCATT at the time, plus I have the WS1 which has no cable but it has down stream sensors.  The MX-02 has a cable from the gun to the PC but no downstream sensors so it can be used either while dry firing or with live ammo from 2.5 to 1000 m.  I have no experience with the SCATT basic.

When I first got the SCATT I didn't spend enough time understanding how I should be using it.  Now when I dry fire with the SCATT I shoot for a smooth release and for group size, the trace tells a lot about your hold AND more importantly your trigger release.  The length, shape, speed and time of the trace tells the story.

I think just dry firing without the SCATT may be just as productive.  BUT for me using the SCATT got me to dry fire more because let's face it, dry firing can be very productive when done right, but ALSO very boring.  The SCATT helps you do it right and you have history to compare your progress with.  One thing that stood out was when I had carpal tunnel surgery my before and after traces really changed.  It has taken a while to get back to where I was before surgery.
- Dave

Reading on the SCATT website your WS1 is indeed the one I would also get. 

The big question is if all this smart software may be much too smart for me and exceed my limits for intensive study and learning of new things. 

I'm eager to try it though and maybe there is an option to visit them in Hallandale -5 hours South of me- and match wits with the system. 

Thanks for your help.

I still need to read up on the Noptell.  I started looking up SCATT, and am very impressed!  I didn't realize how powerful the SCATT system was.  I just watched the video below.  Can any of you tell me how useful it was to your shooting?  Was it more like a video game, or did you immediately start seeing improvements on your paper targets?  This video is old - I guess the WS1 is the appropriate one to buy today?  It's not inexpensive, but if it does what they show, wow....

Next I'll see what I can find on Noptell....

Added later - started going through the Noptell website, and if I were going to buy one of these, they both seem to do the same thing, but SCATT seems far more understandable - can put it in one of my rooms, and start using it easily.  I got completely lost reading about Noptell.

the scatt, noptel, trace  and the like are tools used for dry firing. lets say you change something about your shooting you can see if it has a positive or negative effect on your shooting faster then tons of rounds down range and dry firing. Quality dry firing and attention to what you are doing is probably almost as effective of a tool. 

If you shoot 10s on the trainer, it doesn't mean you will do it on a target. As for which brand to get, depends what brand of truck you drive. I own a trace unit and have used the SCATT. If i had to buy again it would be SCATT Basic maybe the MX2.

Today I interviewed at great length the principals at both SCATT and Noptel. Both very nice people who abstained from criticizing the competitor's product. 

For me, a raw beginner, it all came down to one very important question. 
Is there a system that is capable of identifying not only the path, timing and POI of the shot but far more importantly Why I missed the X and Which specific  element of my shot process is at fault. Which element do I need to improve and will the system monitor, track and demonstrate the changes that I make.

In other words where in the sequence of Hold, Aim and Trigger Control did I go wrong, where do I need to improve and can I monitor my improvement.

At the end of the discussions it became clear that only the Noptel is capable of providing this type of shooting analysis. SCATT is aware of the situation and their people are working on it but the timeline is uncertain.
 
The Noptel evaluates with the help of proprietary algorithms the key factors of shot performance providing immediate and accurate feedback for systematic marksmanship skill development. 
The shot analysis is easy to understand and provides both graphical and numerical information on the shooter’s technical performance for Hold, Aim and Trigger Control. 
It reveals the shooter's strong and weak points in an illustrative way with graphics and colors.

These 4 graphics illustrate this:



The plan now is to visit Noptel's booth at Camp Perry and get introduced to the system and if a used system shows up I'm also quite interested.

Amati wrote:
In other words where in the sequence of Hold, Aim and Trigger Control did I go wrong, where do I need to improve and can I monitor my improvement.

At the end of the discussions it became clear that only the Noptel is capable of providing this type of shooting analysis. SCATT is aware of the situation and their people are working on it but the timeline is uncertain.

That is outright incorrect, SCATT trace data gives you ALL that info. and more.  I suggest you download the SCATT software, it's free.  You can load up past trace data from International competitors and play with it.
- Dave 

https://scattusa.com/blogs/news/interpretation-of-scatt-trainer-trace-line-patterns

The source is Alex Bolger at SCATT who told me in no uncertain terms that their software lacks the algorithm to provide  that ^ specific information while the Noptel system does indeed contain an algorithm that performs that function. 
We discussed it at length and in great detail and I doubt that Alex doesn't know his own system. 
Call him and ask him.
And while you're at it, call George Brenzovich at Noptel as well.

Technically that might be correct, but it doesn't preclude SCATT from using a different algorithm to provide the same information.  

I doubt I'll buy either of these systems unless/until the cost comes down, but I'm interested in the concept.  If you ignore how the test results were obtained, why can't both systems be showing the same results, as they seem to from what I've watched and read so far?  

When you write "specific information", that's like saying two different writers don't use the same "specific words" to get their point across -- but the main goal is the information, not how it was measured.  There may be many ways to measure something, each with advantages, or disadvantages.

Amati wrote:The source is Alex Bolger at SCATT who told me in no uncertain terms that their software lacks the algorithm to provide  that ^ specific information while the Noptel system does indeed contain an algorithm that performs that function. 
We discussed it at length and in great detail and I doubt that Alex doesn't know his own system. 
Call him and ask him.
And while you're at it, call George Brenzovich at Noptel as well.

You are correct, SCATT does not convert the raw data to red, yellow, green indicators BUT the SCATT gives me all the info I want.

Time of trace and shape (hold) to the shot, time between shots, plus ave per target and "match".
% of hold in 10 ring (and inner 10 if you desire it), plus ave per target and "match"
Length and speed of trace, plus ave....
Pre and post trigger release based on trace color which you can define.
Size of group and relationship of group to target center for the match

Ability to change the # of shots per target, usually 5 or 10.

Replaying the trace I can see the shot develop.

So what else do I need?
- Dave

ps check sensor weights plus no cord on the WS1.  Wireless for the Noptel you have to step up to the Expert and I believe that is for rifles only, the sensor is huge.

dronning wrote:

Amati wrote:The source is Alex Bolger at SCATT who told me in no uncertain terms that their software lacks the algorithm to provide  that ^ specific information while the Noptel system does indeed contain an algorithm that performs that function. 
We discussed it at length and in great detail and I doubt that Alex doesn't know his own system. 
Call him and ask him.
And while you're at it, call George Brenzovich at Noptel as well.

You are correct, SCATT does not convert the raw data to red, yellow, green indicators BUT the SCATT gives me all the info I want.

Time of trace and shape (hold) to the shot, time between shots, plus ave per target and "match".
% of hold in 10 ring (and inner 10 if you desire it), plus ave per target and "match"
Length and speed of trace, plus ave....
Pre and post trigger release based on trace color which you can define.
Size of group and relationship of group to target center for the match

Ability to change the # of shots per target, usually 5 or 10.

Replaying the trace I can see the shot develop.

So what else do I need?
- Dave

ps check sensor weights plus no cord on the WS1.  Wireless for the Noptel you have to step up to the Expert and I believe that is for rifles only, the sensor is huge.

I like the scatt basic thats a lot of data to figure out how to use properly. Colored lines and shot placement works for me.

Chris Miceli wrote:I like the scatt basic thats a lot of data to figure out how to use properly. Colored lines and shot placement works for me.

Exactly, I pretty much focus on group size, the colored lines and % in 10 ring.  I often shoot on the back size of the target too.  Just like dry firing on a blank wall.
- Dave

dronning wrote:

So what else do I need?
- Dave

Not much Dave, just this:

https://www.range365.com/mantisx-firearms-training-system-gear-test

It is quite nice and much more than one would expect for $149.99

I have a trace system and I'm quite happy with it. Been shooting on the air pistol target. Definitely spices up dry fire sessions. It was also very helpful to me for shot calling.

Until 33 minutes ago, I had no idea what all that data meant.  The "trace" seemed the most obvious, and the most useful.  The video below explains what all that data means, and how it might be. useful.

Dry-firing with the SCATT is like dry-firing on steroids.  I can see how it could be very beneficial - not sure yet if I'll actually buy one.  I want to think about it for a while.

Nice video Mike.  It shows the Scatt Pro Software System which can not be run on the Scatt Basic System and which is the one I'd consider from a cost point of view.