Eley Tenex for Slow Fire CCI for TF & RF?

by dronning 4/26/2018, 7:37 pm

Does anyone do this: Shoot expensive Eley Tenex* or Pistol Match* or ???, just for slow fire and then switch back to a less expensive CCI or Wolf/SK for Timed and Rapid? I know with my rifles switching is a big NO because sometimes you might get several out of group shots and the POI might even change.

- Dave
*I'm not sure if either shoot well in my gun but I was curious if anyone does this.

by Chris Miceli 4/26/2018, 7:54 pm

i do, but i try and use other eley products with the same lube

by Tim:H11 4/26/2018, 8:02 pm

I use Wolf at 50 because it’s wiat shot the best out of what I could afford. I needed 22 Ammo for the season so I wanted to buy a case and got a good deal on Aguila. It’s not very good at 50. Maybe for practice or training and that’s about it. But at 25 yards it shoots great and it was cheap. So for me:

50 yards: Wolf Match Target
25 yards: What Evers on sale so long as it’s 40 grain lead. Currently shooting Aguila Standard Velocity Super Extra.

Gun is a Nelson Custom Guns 1911 22 Conversion Unit

by PMcfall 4/26/2018, 8:08 pm

I shoot TenX on the long line and CCI on the short line and don't worry about it. I doubt lube differences will be meaningful @ 25 yards.
Phil

by messenger 4/26/2018, 9:41 pm

Right after I fell down and bumped my head I bought a brick of Lapua Midas. I used it over two seasons on the long line only. Used Wolf Target on the short line.

Bill

by oldsalt444 4/26/2018, 11:31 pm

Bottom line is test your loads in your gun. See how they group at 25 and 50 from a sandbag rest or a Ransom Rest if you can get one. Every gun is an individual and has its preferences. 22s are especially finicky about what ammo they like.

I compared CCI SV and Norma Match in my S&W 41. At 25, the CCI barely grouped better than the Norma. But at 50 the Norma shot way better than the CCI. Go figure.

by gweber 4/27/2018, 1:20 am

I use tenex at 50yds and SK standard+ for 25. Never had a problem. Shot plenty of 870-880s doing this.

Garth

by Paul M. 4/27/2018, 3:16 am

Are you guys using regular Tenex or Tenex Pistol?

by gweber 4/27/2018, 3:49 am

The stuff I'm using is just regular tenex. Its older stuff with the clear plastic bottom on it.

Garth

by Chris Miceli 4/27/2018, 3:54 am

tenex has the nipple bullet, pistol tenex is round nose. same thing for match.

by john bickar 4/27/2018, 4:02 am

I have a match lot for 50 yards and then shoot a variety of stuff at 25. At 25 I'm looking for something that will function and that I know should be reasonably accurate from lot-to-lot. (Usually CCI at 25.)

My current 50 yard match lot is some Lapua Midas that I've had since 2005. I am almost out, so I need to do some testing to find my "new" match lot. When I do that testing, I'll then rank other lots that shoot well and use them for league or smaller matches (at 50 yards). It depends what the disparity in groups is.

I use timed fire in league for my accuracy testing for 25 yard ammo. If I can shoot high X-count (and I should be shooting 15x or more in TF) with no flyers, then I know the ammo is fine for 25 yards and 50 feet.

FWIW, I wouldn't shoot my current match lot at 25 yards even if I had an unlimited supply. Its recoil impulse is soft enough that I occasionally get malfunctions, especially if I forget to lube the top round in the magazine. So it's not just penny-pinching that has me shooting different ammo at different yard lines.

I shoot jacketed at 50 and lead at 25 in .45 too. You are most likely going to have a sight adjustment from 50 to 25 anyhow, so switching ammo just means that the numbers you record in your journal possibly are different.

Remember that the 50-yard X-ring is about 4MOA. Forget what you learned shooting rifles.

by Ed Hall 4/27/2018, 5:26 am

Tenex was round nosed before the nippled bullet, too. Then the nippled bullet appeared and due to some feeding issues they brought back the round nosed with a different name.

Back when I first got my 208s, I found that if I shot Tenex for the long line and then switched to SK for the short line my gun would fail loading the second round of the first string of Timed Fire. This was repeatable. I mentioned it to a friend and he tried that combination with his 208s and had the same results. Since then I haven't really tried swapping during a match. I just fire my "Match" ammo for the entire match. Currently, that's Eley Edge.

by Colt711 5/31/2018, 2:05 am

Ed Hall wrote:

Back when I first got my 208s, I found that if I shot Tenex for the long line and then switched to SK for the short line my gun would fail loading the second round of the first string of Timed Fire. This was repeatable. I mentioned it to a friend and he tried that combination with his 208s and had the same results. Since then I haven't really tried swapping during a match. I just fire my "Match" ammo for the entire match. Currently, that's Eley Edge.

Ed,
I experienced the same, or similar, phenomana yrs ago. The basis were a 41, RWS Target for SF, and Rem SV for sustained. (For those asking why Rem, I take the 5th Amd!).
Seems as if oil on the 1st TF round solved my prob. I didn't use that ammo comb for long either.
Ron Habegger

by jmdavis 5/31/2018, 4:02 am

Ron, I know a number of 2600 shooters who liked the Remington SV of old. So you were in good company.

By the time I started, it was an alibi magnet in the guns I tried it in. But I shot some of the old stuff in a friends High Standard and it was pretty good for reduced 25 yard matches.

by **Wobbley** 5/31/2018, 6:40 am

john bickar wrote:
My current 50 yard match lot is some Lapua Midas that I've had since 2005. I am almost out, so I need to do some testing to find my "new" match lot. When I do that testing, I'll then rank other lots that shoot well and use them for league or smaller matches (at 50 yards). It depends what the disparity in groups is.
.

If you want to stick with Lapua, you can select your lots at the Lapua testing facility in Arizona. You bring your gun and test the lots to see which it likes. Then you can buy that lot of ammunition as long as they still have it in inventory.

by Jack H 5/31/2018, 7:07 am

How does one these days get several sample lots of ammo for testing

by **Wobbley** 5/31/2018, 4:51 pm

You have to go to the manufacturer’s ammo testing facility.

Lapua has one in Mesa AZ.
http://www.lapua.com/en/resources/test-shooting.html

Eley has one in Winters TX.
http://eley.co.uk/united-states-of-america-test-range/

by zanemoseley 5/31/2018, 7:18 pm

Seems you guys are worrying about your 22 ammo a bit much considering most CCI SV will shoot as good or better than most 45's shooting quality ammo. IMO if you're not a master seeking HM you're likely just pissing money down a rat hole shooting $20 a box ammo. Of course there's exceptions like some pistols disliking certain ammo but in general you can go a LONG way with CCI SV.

by Jack H 5/31/2018, 8:13 pm

Wobbley wrote:You have to go to the manufacturer’s ammo testing facility.

Lapua has one in Mesa AZ.
http://www.lapua.com/en/resources/test-shooting.html

Eley has one in Winters TX.
http://eley.co.uk/united-states-of-america-test-range/

Like this will happen for 99% of us pistoleers.
We did used to get lots to test of Red Box and Black box for our outdoor prone. If I were to get back into SB I would look hard at RWS. I have not shot SB prone for years

by Slamfire 6/28/2018, 8:45 pm

Seems you guys are worrying about your 22 ammo a bit much considering most CCI SV will shoot as good or better than most 45's shooting quality ammo. IMO if you're not a master seeking HM you're likely just pissing money down a rat hole shooting $20 a box ammo. Of course there's exceptions like some pistols disliking certain ammo but in general you can go a LONG way with CCI SV.

I agree on that.

Lube on the cartridge keeps the case from tarnishing, provides lube for the bullet so lead fouling is insignificant, but very importantly, for a blow back pistol, the lube on the case melts during firing and becomes a lubricant. The wax melts and breaks the friction between case and chamber allows reliable extraction.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1780566

Patented Nov. 4, 1930 PATENT OFFICE JOHN DOUGLAS PEDERSEN, OF SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS 11,0 Drawing.

This invention relates to a process for coating cartridges and more particularly the affixing of a coating of hard wax to the metal case of a cartridge; and the object of the invention is to provide a method whereby cartridges may be coated with great uniformity with an extremely thin film, and also whereby a relatively large number of cartridges may be coated in a short time and at small cost.

In the preparation of cartridges having metal cases for storage and for use, it has been found desirable to apply to said metal case a relatively thin coating of some protective substance which will preserve said metal case for comparatively long periods of time against-deterioration, such as season cracking. In the present invention, the material for said coating has been so chosen as to perform the additional function of acting as a lubricant for the case of the cartridge, both for facilitating introduction into the chamber of the gun and the extraction thereof after firing. The most suitable wax which I have found for this purpose and which I at present prefer is ceresin, a refined product of ozokerite; but I wish it to be understood that other waxes having similar qualities may exist which might serve equally well. Some of the desirable features of ceresin are that it is hard and non-tacky at ordinary temperatures having a melting point somewhere between 140 and 176 Fahrenheit. It is smooth and glassy when hard and does not gather dirt or dust. However, when the ceresin on the cartridges is melted in the chamber of a gun, it becomes a lubricant.

Other lubricating waxes have been employed for coating cartridges, and the method most generally pursued for applying said coating to the cartridge case has been to prepare a heated bath of a solution of the wax in a suitable solvent, dip the cartridges therein so that a film of the solution will adhere thereto, and finally withdraw the cartridges to permit the solvent to evaporate from the coating film. This former process is comparatively slow and has been found lacking in several important respects.........

John Pedersen was the inventor of the Pedersen rifle, a rifle that was considered replacing the M1903 Springfield. This rifle was a high powered centerfire rifle with a delayed, or retarded blow back action. High power delayed actions required case lubrication, most commonly oil and grease, to break the friction between case and chamber to function. Mr Pedersen figured out wax would work quite well:

Eley Tenex for Slow Fire CCI for TF & RF? KMp8zlZ

Eley Tenex for Slow Fire CCI for TF & RF? KMp8zlZ

I don't know the exact lube used on 22 lr's, the cheap stuff has to be ceresin. But, if you are concerned about lube, put a drop of motor oil, or any oil, on the top of your five round stack, and fire the cartridges that way. I will put a drop just at the junction of bullet and case, I want the oil going up the barrel just as much as I want oil going out the back of the chamber. I have found that it improves extraction and helps reduce fouling. I have helped shooters get their pistols back cycling, on the firing line, by telling them to oil their ammunition. This is a temporary measure, wax build up will clog up a 22 LR pistol, but oil will help dissolve some of it, and will break the friction between case and chamber. At some point, a gun is so fouled, you have to clean the thing. A 22lr rimfire is not a powerful round and you want the maximum bolt thrust you can get out of that cartridge, so the round will extract.

Blowback actions, which is the operating system of our pistols, rely 100% on the thrust of the cartridge on the bolt face to function. Everyone understands that, right? The more bolt thrust the cartridge gives, the better will be the extraction. The case pops out of the chamber like a cork in a wine bottle. If the case is stuck in the chamber, for whatever reason, it won't pop out.

by teg2658 6/29/2018, 4:20 am

I had a friend who was on the USAR team and got issued 10K of Eley 10X a year. Every year he borrowed my Ranson Rest, there was the sub inch lots of 10X at 50 yards and the 2.5 inch lots of 10X at 50 yards. About 5 years ago I bought a case of ELEY Target that shot inch at 50 yards.
His issue of Federal wad in 45ACP was the same results, 1.25 to 3 inch from lot to lot at 50 yards.
Tom Ginovsky

by john bickar 6/29/2018, 6:19 am

teg2658 wrote:I had a friend who was on the USAR team and got issued 10K of Eley 10X a year. Every year he borrowed my Ranson Rest, there was the sub inch lots of 10X at 50 yards and the 2.5 inch lots of 10X at 50 yards. About 5 years ago I bought a case of ELEY Target that shot inch at 50 yards.
His issue of Federal wad in 45ACP was the same results, 1.25 to 3 inch from lot to lot at 50 yards.
Tom Ginovsky

Yup. One of the (many) benefits of being a full-time, supported shooter, is that you can do that kind of testing without having it take away from your available effective training time.

I no longer have the benefit of being a full-time, supported shooter, so I spend the vast majority of my limited available time training, rather than testing. I’m planning to do Random Rest testing tomorrow for the first time in about 5 years. That cadence can’t keep up with the guys and gals that can train and compete all year, and test in the “off-season” every year.

I try to make up for the disadvantage by being older and wilier Laughing

by jmdavis 6/29/2018, 5:07 pm

"Older and wilier" sounds good.

by dronning 6/29/2018, 5:57 pm

FYI one of the definitions of "wilier" is full of ..... lol!

by john bickar 6/30/2018, 4:38 am

dronning wrote:FYI one of the definitions of "wilier" is full of .....

Not denying that; you only need to ask anyone who has met me. Laughing

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Eley Tenex for Slow Fire CCI for TF & RF?

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