Marvel or Nelson???

First topic message reminder :

Hi People,i Have a 2006 Marvel conversion with .647" group test buttom at 50 yards and my future project is a dedicated lower for a conversion,because weight,grip angle and same trigger of 1911. my marvel is no lockback version and i think is no dry fire safe. i want to know nelson is on pair of marvel in accuracy in bullseye shooting.thanks!

fpk wrote:Drywall anchors, then fire at will.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H5WVCS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Slice one side off to allow extractor to pass without catching the edge of the anchor. Put one layer of masking tape around it to fit more snuggly in chamber and not just fall out.

+1

I'm using this tape and it works great:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W3FAFP0?pd_rd_i=B00W3FAFP0&psc=1&pd_rd_w=unWUH&pd_rd_wg=X0egc&pd_rd_r=b7ec5741-25e0-41d7-a680-0b5eb5a20122&ref_=pd_luc_rh_sbs_02_02_t_img_lh

Here are tons of both conversions out there every weekend shooting xcellent scores as is.. can they be improved yes. It all depends on what you demand of your guns.. nelsons can be improved through simple re-crowning.  Resleeving is always an option on 22s

jglenn21 wrote:Here are tons of both conversions out there every weekend shooting xcellent scores as is.. can they be improved yes. It all depends on what you demand of your guns.. nelsons can be improved through simple re-crowning.  Resleeving is always an option on 22s

If the barrel isn’t quality and the chambering is junk a cleaned up crown isn’t going to help. You need a quality barrel,chambering and crown.

That's why resleeving works so well.

jglenn21 wrote:That's why resleeving works so well.

Exceptionally well. Especially when new barrels are unavailable. New chamber, new crown. What's not to like.

jglenn21 wrote:That's why resleeving works so well.

Sleeving works well because it’s easier and faster then making a new barrel. A barrel done correctly the first time would be best

I’m not sure that at a marksman level you’d notice a difference from the hand between a Nelson, Marvel, or anything else and wether you’d benefit from having the barrel lined right away. What would matter more would be wether it’s clmfortable to you, and wether you shoot one option better over another. I have a stock Nelson and shoot 880+. That being said - after sandbagging it and some very limited ransom rest testing, it could probably stand to have the barrel lined. That or maybe just recrowned. But I don’t think at your current classification you could go wrong in any direction. Money would be better spent on ammunition and practice and match experience. None of the above was meant to disappoint or insult. Just what I’ve seen benefit shooters more and what benefits them less. In the long run you can decided to line the barrel or perhaps you I may come attracted to another option such a Hammerli or a FWB or something else entirely. Just my $0.02. Shoot the marvel and enjoy the game. Good luck.

Tim, we tested  5 types of ammunition out of a 2002 Marvel. The Ammunition was Eley Target, Norma Match, Norma Tac (2 lots), CCI Std (2 lots), and Aguila Super Xtra. 

The most expensive ammo and the ammo that shot best in my Pardini and Benelli was the Norma Match. The group was over 2.5 inches at 50 yards. CCI ranged from 1.25 to 1.5. Aguila was about 1.4, the Eley was 1.25, and one of the Tac lots was around 1.3. 

The best group was around .9 with one lot the Norma Tac from one magazine. 

I don't disagree that more dry fire and ammo will take a person farther, faster. It will. But I think that it means that the person may reach the equipment limitation sooner as well. 

I think that the number one issue with my conversion and match accuracy is the trigger. I have been unable to master the longish roll. Before I relined or rebarreled, I will get trigger work done. 

For me, it is too late to reline this season. But after October it is not out of the question.

I'm confused (not so unknown at my age!). My Marvel firing pin is short enough that it's just not possible to hit the chamber edge. Are some Marvels different depending on manufacture date or such?

i contact marvel and they dont sell single slides for update a old conversion to lockback. they will replace the old slide for new one with a cost + slide stop + labor and shipping cost.  i will maintian in classic no lockback.

SW-52 wrote:i contact marvel and they dont sell single slides for update a old conversion to lockback. they will replace the old slide for new one with a cost + slide stop + labor and shipping cost.  i will maintian in classic no lockback.

yea... i ran into that as well.... the old marvel folks let you buy what ever you wanted.

For those of us who are not High Master wannabe's just looking for a quality conversion..
From sandbags with a Dot.



and

james r chapman wrote:For those of us who are not High Master wannabe's just looking for a quality conversion..
From sandbags with a Dot.



and

here is my AW93 i tested.  I have 2 lots of CCI i purchased in 2017 and 2018. I only tested 1 lot of tennex but it was the lot that wasn't grouping that well out of any of the guns.... by not well i mean other lots were smaller. I measure center to center of the farthest apart shots 


Here is the best my marvel would do ( a ~.7 eley target test target was supplied with it). I used cci and several lots of tenex and this is the best it would do. CCI was 1.5-2" To be fair i've seen a few nelson barrels in the same situation(but they don't provide a accuracy claim). I don't have any targets but they have been posted here. 

Here is the test target from a recent relined 208s (disclaimer this is the supplied test target, i  need to test it with my ammo)




You don't need to spend much time in testing match ammo. If it will do 1" with CCI probably any lot will be +/- .25" With fancy match ammo buy a few lots and test them. When you find the lot that shoots well for you buy as much of that lot as possible.

Thus far I've owned 3 Marvel unit one's and 1 Nelson. the first 2 Marvels were early models that had the thin extractor. The first one rubbed the chamber & cut a notch into it. The second developed a cracked slide. The third one is the lock back version that doesn't. The first 2 shot under an inch with any lot of CCI sv I tried. The third one wouldn't shoot under 2 inches with anything.  So I sent the Marvel #'s 2 & 3 into FGW to get them running. The chamber of #3 was oversized so I wound up replacing the barrel. #2 got a new slide. Turnaround time was under 2 weeks, well pleased with the quick service. Nothing was covered under warranty-I didn't ask & it wasn't offered.

The Nelson shoots nearly as well as Marvels # 1&2. No issues whatsoever with the function with the exception of the lock back feature. I didn't think of holding in the mag release button & quickly wore off the magazine protrusion that engages the slide stop. I could try & jury rig an extension to the follower, but I've gotten used to counting to 5 so it's no big deal.

I ransomed the Nelson & Marvel #3 @ 50 yards last night after open shooting. shot Aquila SE, 2 lots of CCI sv, and CMP Eley. Both units shot both lots of CCI sv at or under 1 1/4". the Nelson showed a preference for Aquila SE at 1 1/4"-the CMP Eley at 2 1/16".  The Marvel #3 was the reverse CMP Eley @ 1 1/16" and Aquila @ 2+".

So cutting to the chase-get either one-both are very good shooters and as reliable as the ammo. I wouldn't feel that either one would cost me any points.

Mention was made of the accuracy button that comes with Marvel and doesn't with the Nelson. When I talked with Larry Nelson at Perry in 2016, his response was if you don't like the way it shoots, send it back. My Marvel #3 came with an .8xx button. So much for buttons, trust but verify.
Al

Al wrote:Thus far I've owned 3 Marvel unit one's and 1 Nelson. the first 2 Marvels were early models that had the thin extractor. The first one rubbed the chamber & cut a notch into it. The second developed a cracked slide. The third one is the lock back version that doesn't. The first 2 shot under an inch with any lot of CCI sv I tried. The third one wouldn't shoot under 2 inches with anything.  So I sent the Marvel #'s 2 & 3 into FGW to get them running. The chamber of #3 was oversized so I wound up replacing the barrel. #2 got a new slide. Turnaround time was under 2 weeks, well pleased with the quick service. Nothing was covered under warranty-I didn't ask & it wasn't offered.

The Nelson shoots nearly as well as Marvels # 1&2. No issues whatsoever with the function with the exception of the lock back feature. I didn't think of holding in the mag release button & quickly wore off the magazine protrusion that engages the slide stop. I could try & jury rig an extension to the follower, but I've gotten used to counting to 5 so it's no big deal.

I ransomed the Nelson & Marvel #3 @ 50 yards last night after open shooting. shot Aquila SE, 2 lots of CCI sv, and CMP Eley. Both units shot both lots of CCI sv at or under 1 1/4". the Nelson showed a preference for Aquila SE at 1 1/4"-the CMP Eley at 2 1/16".  The Marvel #3 was the reverse CMP Eley @ 1 1/16" and Aquila @ 2+".

So cutting to the chase-get either one-both are very good shooters and as reliable as the ammo. I wouldn't feel that either one would cost me any points.

Mention was made of the accuracy button that comes with Marvel and doesn't with the Nelson. When I talked with Larry Nelson at Perry in 2016, his response was if you don't like the way it shoots, send it back. My Marvel #3 came with an .8xx button. So much for buttons, trust but verify.
Al

yes always trust but verify, I was talking to a military armor that received several new 208s from hammerli. A shooter couldn't get a gun to function correctly or shoot worth a damn.  After inspection it was discovered the chamber was never finish on that gun. It was a rough chambering no longer than a 22 short. It did come with a serialized button that showed a tiny little group though.

Chris Miceli wrote:

Al wrote:Thus far I've owned 3 Marvel unit one's and 1 Nelson. the first 2 Marvels were early models that had the thin extractor. The first one rubbed the chamber & cut a notch into it. The second developed a cracked slide. The third one is the lock back version that doesn't. The first 2 shot under an inch with any lot of CCI sv I tried. The third one wouldn't shoot under 2 inches with anything.  So I sent the Marvel #'s 2 & 3 into FGW to get them running. The chamber of #3 was oversized so I wound up replacing the barrel. #2 got a new slide. Turnaround time was under 2 weeks, well pleased with the quick service. Nothing was covered under warranty-I didn't ask & it wasn't offered.

The Nelson shoots nearly as well as Marvels # 1&2. No issues whatsoever with the function with the exception of the lock back feature. I didn't think of holding in the mag release button & quickly wore off the magazine protrusion that engages the slide stop. I could try & jury rig an extension to the follower, but I've gotten used to counting to 5 so it's no big deal.

I ransomed the Nelson & Marvel #3 @ 50 yards last night after open shooting. shot Aquila SE, 2 lots of CCI sv, and CMP Eley. Both units shot both lots of CCI sv at or under 1 1/4". the Nelson showed a preference for Aquila SE at 1 1/4"-the CMP Eley at 2 1/16".  The Marvel #3 was the reverse CMP Eley @ 1 1/16" and Aquila @ 2+".

So cutting to the chase-get either one-both are very good shooters and as reliable as the ammo. I wouldn't feel that either one would cost me any points.

Mention was made of the accuracy button that comes with Marvel and doesn't with the Nelson. When I talked with Larry Nelson at Perry in 2016, his response was if you don't like the way it shoots, send it back. My Marvel #3 came with an .8xx button. So much for buttons, trust but verify.
Al

yes always trust but verify, I was talking to a military armor that received several new 208s from hammerli. A shooter couldn't get a gun to function correctly or shoot worth a damn.  After inspection it was discovered the chamber was never finish on that gun. It was a rough chambering no longer than a 22 short. It did come with a serialized button that showed a tiny little group though.

Wow,Incredible.

This is 10 shots at 25 meters, 82 feet so I know I don't have to worry about relining.

Olde Pilot wrote:I'm confused (not so unknown at my age!). My Marvel firing pin is short enough that it's just not possible to hit the chamber edge. Are some Marvels different depending on manufacture date or such?

That is correct, but the problem is that when it breaks, it may not be obvious you have a broken pin.  The break happens back inside the pistol.  It will dry fire and fire bullets with the broken pin.

The problem occurs when you start to dry fire with that broken pin.  THEN it will launch itself into the chamber edge.

I did not know my pin was even broken until I had issues feeding into the chamber and took a closer look.  Dry firing with the broken pin for a few weeks will most certainly damage the chamber edge.  The scope mount hides the chamber so it is not something I noticed was occuring.

Bob Marvel put it to me this way years ago.  Marvel pins are dropped in and Nelson pins are fitted.  That is why you can dry fire a Nelson.

I have a 6 inch Marvel and Nelson I had to reline owing to a barrel ring, my fault not the Nelson's. 

Both are excellent with an #8 spring. Lock back is not an issue with me. I shot a 98 7x with a stock Nelson and a 97 5x with the relined Nelson on the long line. So as far as scores go you may not notice much difference. 

I have not used the 6 inch for matches yet because It is set up for EIC but I will.  My guess owing to the barrel length the 6 inch will be a little better for the short line. I also like the Marvel Iron sites better. 

If I were to buy a new one today, It would be a hard decision. I like the idea of a 6 inch steel slide but Nelsons are fine and may only need to be recrowned. Out of the box both will shoot under 1.5 inches with the right ammo on the long line and that is all you need and all of them will shoot a 100 10x at 25 yards.

Any idea what barrel manufacturer a 2010 Courtland, Nebraska vintage non lock back Unit 1 would have in it? Were they still using Shilen barrels in 2010? All the talk about Shilen barrels in older Marvel's has made me curious.

Chris Miceli wrote:

jglenn21 wrote: Here are tons of both conversions out there every weekend shooting xcellent scores as is.. can they be improved yes. It all depends on what you demand of your guns.. nelsons can be improved through simple re-crowning.  Resleeving is always an option on 22s

If the barrel isn’t quality and the chambering is junk a cleaned up crown isn’t going to help. You need a quality barrel,chambering and crown.  

Rare (very slight & polite) disagreement with Chris.  I've re-crowned 3 Nelson barrels, I've had improvement anywhere from 20% to 50% depending on the ammunition type/lot.  For about $25 -$50 you may find you have a more than adequate barrel if the starting point is good enough.  If the barrel is junk and the chamber well out of spec, no disagreement, a re-crown is a waste of time, but I'm not sure that many/most of us have that level of knowledge or could detect the difference.  I have noticed that each barrel, 5, 7, 8, etc. is significantly better than the previous barrel.  It looks like Larry is heading in the right direction as always, great folks and always trying to improve their product.  Average improvement after a re-crown (thanks to advice from Jon) has been about 20%, with one exception with TENEX.  I later found out that I tested with a bad magazine and retired it and therefore need to re-test.  The photo below is a re-crown done by Dave Sams and the list below is the before and after Ransom Rest testing on barrel #8.  I think the way that the Nelson barrels are crowned takes away some performance.  If I bought another barrel I would test and re-crown it if its close to a 1" gun, otherwise I'm aligned with Chris.  I ran out of SK Pistol Match, but will redo the test when I have some on hand, I also want to re-test the TENEX.  IMO a re-crown is a cheap way to bump Nelson performance and you may find the results "adequate.  None of the barrels below were under 1" until I had them re-crowned, with the exception of Lapua Midas+ in Barrel #8 at .946.   I think Larry has a new barrel update on the way so I'm optimistic we can see even better performance.

I can't get new Marvels I've tested to group worth a Snot compared to the test target they come with.

Barrel #8
Lapua Midas+               .946"   -     AFTER:    .737"
Lapua Center-X           1.161"  -    AFTER    1.015"
Eley     TENEX             1.287"   -    AFTER    1.497"
Eley     Club                  1.357"  -    AFTER    1.085"
CCI      SV                    1.553"   -    AFTER    1.133"
SK      PIstol Match      1.932" -     NOT TESTED






Here's a couple Nelson Tests I did from a Ransom Rest


Nelson Barrel #7

Eley TENEX





Nelson Barrel #8

I dont have nelson conversion,only one marvel with shilen barrel and Two KART 5" and 6" . Mr Nelson work every time to update the nelson conversion and the customer service is awesome. I purchase 2 recoil buffers for my marvel and he send me additional buffer free. The wait time is a little bit,but the final product is excellent!

Chris Miceli wrote:

jglenn21 wrote:I have both a Nelson and an older non lock back Marvel...Both function great.. I added a steel RRA rib to my Marvel and prefer it these days...it also has a .6xx button

I agree with Jon in that my Marvel does not peen the chamber dry firing it.. Haven't broken the firing pin yet...obviously I need to dry fire more.

The concern is not the firing pin hitting the breach face it’s the smashed up aluminum of the slide around the firing pin from the hammer.

If memory serves, my marvel has a steel block that the firing pin runs through...  I cracked an aluminium slide and had.it.replaced with steel, but I believe the aluminium slide also had the steel insert.

Aluminum slide and steel slide on Marvel has steel breech block.
Jon

Regarding dry firing a Marvel, the issue is not that the firing pin hitting the breech face, but protecting the hammer and back of firing pin from repeated impact. I just got off the phone with Marvel Precision and they sell a dry fire device to protect the hammer/firing pin. If you are only dry firing a few times (<10 a few times a week) then a plug will suffice for limited dry firing.