Not quite "bullseye competition", but maybe it could be....

First topic message reminder :

My brother sent me this YouTube video.  It took me three times watching it, the last time in slow motion, for me to figure out what was going on.  What I was thinking while watching it - what a cool way to practice bullseye, having a small post with the "targets" that flip right or left, and having to hit each one so they point towards the other guy, before he can do it to you.  

If this thread is inappropriate here, it can be deleted.  It's not a bullseye competition, but it looks like a wonderful way to train for bullseye.  It's also exciting to watch, which would obviously attract spectators and especially viewers.  Just a few thoughts.....

I had a chance to shoot some steel at 50 yds a few days ago with two hands.  I shoot single handed exclusively and I was laughing so hard the entire time because it seemed like such a piece of cake.  

Appropriate for Bullseye training? Well, maybe not in the traditional sense, but it was nice to just shoot something else besides Bullseye and have some low pressure fun.  

It made me appreciate what Bullseye shooting has done for me.  No matter how poorly I shoot BE, I am still light years ahead of the average range shooter missing the 2x3 foot piece paper at 15 feet!

willnewton wrote:I had a chance to shoot some steel at 50 yds a few days ago with two hands.  I shoot single handed exclusively and I was laughing so hard the entire time because it seemed like such a piece of cake.  

Appropriate for Bullseye training? Well, maybe not in the traditional sense, but it was nice to just shoot something else besides Bullseye and have some low pressure fun.  

It made me appreciate what Bullseye shooting has done for me.  No matter how poorly I shoot BE, I am still light years ahead of the average range shooter missing the 2x3 foot piece paper at 15 feet!

Exactly. Training in bullseye makes everything else seem fun and easy. Might not be the best at other events, right away, but usually in the middle of the pack first match. It is kind of hard not to laugh.

robert84010 wrote:

willnewton wrote:I had a chance to shoot some steel at 50 yds a few days ago with two hands.  I shoot single handed exclusively and I was laughing so hard the entire time because it seemed like such a piece of cake.  

Appropriate for Bullseye training? Well, maybe not in the traditional sense, but it was nice to just shoot something else besides Bullseye and have some low pressure fun.  

It made me appreciate what Bullseye shooting has done for me.  No matter how poorly I shoot BE, I am still light years ahead of the average range shooter missing the 2x3 foot piece paper at 15 feet!

Exactly. Training in bullseye makes everything else seem fun and easy. Might not be the best at other events, right away, but usually in the middle of the pack first match. It is kind of hard not to laugh.

The harder I work at bullseye, the luckier I get knocking down steel.
Accuracy is tough to get speed is easy....if you already earned the accuracy.

BE Mike wrote:

. One of the best ways to increase participation, IMHO, is by one-on-one introduction to the sport and encouragement. How many matches have you participated in? Have you introduced anyone to the sport?

it took years but I was finally recruited into High Power Service Rifle matches, 

once there it stuck, I was shooting only local stuff but was doing it 10 times or more a year, 


then,  the company I was at when under, and I switched employers, and lost my time off to shoot (retail means every day is a work day, weekends included, off on a weekday usually)

of the 2 guys that primarily got me in it, one was not a good shot, but a great shooting companion (RIP Mr. Binney) and the other is a very good shot, and another great shooting companion, 

fortunately, the State Team also shoots at the club so I got a lot of good coaching if I needed it, and almost always friendly folks to answer Q's, 

took a few years, but I also recruited a guy I know that should leg out soon, 


several of the guys I shot with also ventured over to Bullseye for a bit,  and tried to get me to shoot too, but time off constraints made that not possible, 
due to several factors, mostly time, and some lack of events, all have dropped Bullseye completely, 


I've posted before that the events/matches are drying up a bit in this area, 
hopefully, I can get a day off and shoot at Cavalier in the near future (I believe our Mr. Davis runs those matches) 

at one time I was hoping to shoot at the Richmond PD's range, since they were running I think Wed night matches, but that ended a good while ago, supposedly due to lack of attendance, (shame since I was working a few blocks from there and could have shot a match after work,,,)

Oakdale, a club here in MN, runs a bullseye clinic every year.  The clinic consists of a couple hours of class room of which 50% is safety.  A discussion on equipment with displays & then course of fire and commands & revisit safety before they head out to the range.  Everything is shot at 25yds with 22s.  Volunteers help coach the new shooters during range time with 1 to 2 per coach.  The clinic has anywhere from 15 to 30 attendees and from that they might get 1 to 3 new shooters with a couple more that try it out for a match or 2.

This is a great way to introduce a newcomer that might be a little intimidated about going to a match but unfortunately it only takes place once a year.
- Dave

BE Mike wrote:Entirely different skill sets. Lots of misses. One miss in bullseye will knock you out of contention. If you want to shoot that type of competition, go for it. It just has little to do with Bullseye and never will. I'm with dronning. I started off shooting bullseye and stayed with it for decades. I did try other pistol sports and found that the basic marksmanship skills I ingrained in bullseye pistol shooting served me very well in those other disciplines, i.e. PPC, NRA Hunters Pistol, IHMSA  (metallic silhouette), Steel Challenge, IPSC, NRA Action Pistol, Int. Air Pistol, Int. Free Pistol and even long gun competitions. It doesn't work the other way around. I did have to learn drawing and reloading, among other skills.

Having done PPC, Action Shooting and now 8 months into PP/BE, classified in April 2018.  I would offer the following based on much experience. I will preface by saying PP/BE is kicking my butt! My goal is Master within a year and it has proven to be much harder than I thought. I recently, in matches I have shot a 95-4X in SF with a 6 and have shot 96-4X TF with a 6. I am also capable of following it up with a 79-0x. Yikes! The good targets a getting better, and the bad targets, not as bad, but it is a very humbling experience. 

I have had a Grand Master, High Master or Master classifications  in numerous pistol disciplines. Triple Distinguished in NRA AP, one number as low as #6 and PPC Distinguished #164. I have Virginia Police Distinguished Badge #1 and Police Marksman Distinguished Badge (actually a belt buckle) #16. I have a few NRA National Records. Over one hundred, yes 100.  PP/BE has been the toughest for me, but the others started as many as 4 decades ago, so age is a bit of factor, but PP/BE is hard! Started as a MK skipped over SS, now EX. I will soon be 66. Recent pain in elbow may force me to change hands. Fortunately in PPC and NRA AP we had to do some weak hand shooting, so not "as" catastrophic, but clearly will be tougher. We will see. Now back to topic...

Similarities: 
Both require shooting and hitting the target(s). Both require understanding of sights or dot, grip and trigger control. Both require the knowledge to accept one's skill level within a "period of time" and deciding to break the shot or wait for a better opportunity. Whether it be a par time string or Comstock, the shooter decides when to pull the trigger or not. Both have penalties for misses. In PP/BE it is 10 points per, in action shooting you often, not always can have make up shots, but that adds time to a time based scoring system. Unlike what most people think, in "action shooting" you cannot "miss fast enough" to win. You still must hit the target, and sometimes if steel you must knock it down, or rotate it. In PP/BE a scratch X is a good as a pinwheel, in action shooting, if steel, it may be a miss if it doesn't move the target as required.

Differences:
Precision, clearly PP/BR requires more precise shots than action shooting requires, but precise enough is the key to both. Shooting pinwheel Xs in both are not a good use of time, if it impacts timing for subsequent shots. With a fair amount of confidence I can say the best at Action Pistol can shoot pretty accurately. With few exceptions, the best at PP/BE suffer dramatically at action shooting pace, and they lack the other skill sets often required, such as movement, reloading, clearing jams, and getting a good grip right from a holster on demand.  PP/BE you have a single target at a fixed known distance with your ability to zero your gun/ammo precisely for those distances. You may have special eyes pieces for the two different differences. In action shooting the distances not only vary, they are variable. One typically would only have one set of eye wear/prescription and hope it is adequate for whatever you encounter, including multiple dissimilar size targets at varying distances.  Action shooting typically does not have shooter or equipment alibis. Range alibis yes, but not shooter alibis. So the equipment must be 100% or you had better know how to get it up and running very quickly.

Bottom line:
I think there is something to be learned from both schools or all schools of shooting. Learning to shoot more accurately is always a good thing to do. Learning to shoot just as accurately, a little faster is a good thing. Learning to handle a handgun including, drawing, reloading, malfunction drills and to acquire targets at varying distances is also a good thing to know how to do. 

There have been many world and national ranked shooters of each who tried to crossover. They were all unsuccessful, until they dedicated the time to learn what it takes to acquire the additional skill sets of the other side. All have been humbled at what is required of the other side. IMO those with exceptional precision ability have an advantage in that they already know how to shoot, they just need to learn how to accept "good enough" very quickly. Sokolowski, Franks, Gasser and a few others from AMU have jumped into NRA Action Pistol with both feet, and have clearly excelled. They are exceptional athletes, with pretty good resources. Hemphill was a PPC shooter, then went NRA Action and now PP/BE. Clearly a man who understands trigger control too.  

My $.02

Martin


 

 

 

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To add to what Allgoodhits and BE Mike stated, Bill Allard and Jim Cirillo came out of Bullseye competition to be successful in other forms of competition. I have old books written by Cooper, Jordan and McGivern that have shooters start with Bullseye then add other forms of competition.

Take speed out of the game and it might work. A 3 plate dueling tree at the 25yd line, two shooters, 10sec to make each shot. If no one has won after x # of shots by both shooters, back up the tree.

Could make for fun training.

ding-a-ling wrote:Take speed out of the game and it might work. A 3 plate dueling tree at the 25yd line, two shooters, 10sec to make each shot. If no one has won after x # of shots by both shooters, back up the tree.

Could make for fun training.

In one sense, any shooting where perfecting the basic fundamentals of accurate pistol shooting, one handed, is good training. That includes dry fire.