Flyer from hand cycled chamber round

One of my 1911 guns consistently will throw a flyer on the chamber round. Clean or fouled barrel, slide stop release or slingshot cycled doesn't matter. What is the cause/fix? I tried to post pics but files were too large. 50 yard groups are quite good, except for the chamber round, which double the group size.

Thanks in advance.

Martin

I would suspect the magazine spring. Does it do it with reduced rounds in the magazine?

Len

LenV wrote:I would suspect the magazine spring. Does it do it with reduced rounds in the magazine?

Len

This ^^, or the only other difference is the disconnect track riding on top of the next round in the magazine.  Have you tried it with cycling the first round in the mag from a closed slide (i.e. - insert a mag of 5 into a pistol with the slide closed and cycle the slide to chamber the first round)?

Tell us more about your 1911..

Does it have the "Marvel cut".  

Wad gun or EIC. Is the 1st shot out of a clean barrel

Sorry, I have not had the opportunity to respond individually.

The gun is a .38 Super Caspian slide and frame, acc-u-railed, KKM barrel and compensator. A typical Bianchi Action Pistol 1911. It is very accurate, with consistent groups under two inches, many around 1.5" and an occasional closer to an inch at 50 yds prone. I have validated using an RR that it is a real mechanical issue and not a shooter issue. I might add that first, or hand cycled chamber round flyers are not a show stopper in action pistol, since we go hot on the short line and stay hot until last shot is fired at the long line. The condition is not unacceptable to the sport, it is just unacceptable to me, since I have other AP guns and BE guns that do NOT have this condition. It is a recently re-barreled gun with round count about 600-800. I will not trash the guy or who built the gun, because the gun does shoot quite well. He suggested to try a larger slide stop pin. I have not done that.

The hand or manual cycle chamber round is distinct from the group when loading 3 or more rounds in the mag. Clean or fouled barrel makes no difference. It makes little to no difference if chamber round is chambered from slide lock or sling shot the slide. Same condition using different mags. The last round in the group is in the group cluster too. The hand cycled chamber round is the issue.

I have had some sidebar conversations with several about possible things to look at. Jon Eulette has been very helpful and has rendered some suggestions based on photos which he asked for. I will pursue his suggestions as they seem sound to me.

What was observed and has been corrected is the extractor hook was actually making contact on the side wall of the brass in the extractor groove of the brass. I had not checked this, since the gun runs flawlessly and the brass is ejected consistently and as where it should be on these type guns. I will not make any other changes until I try shooting the gun with this slight mod. One mod at a time, I think is likely the best approach at tracking this down. I think Jon's suggestions are likely more the culprit, but again one change at a time.

Thanks for the ideas. Sometimes it is easy sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is obvious and sometimes it is a mystery.

Happy Thanksgiving

Martin

I had the same problem with a 9mm 1911. The pistol would shoot 2 separate but very distinct groups, The hand cycled group would print 4 inches low.
After months of looking for the problem it turned out to be cartridge OAL. The barrel was chambered for a 115g HTP at 1.120in. I started shooting Atlanta Arms which was much shorter.
When I went back to the 1.120 all problems went away. I would have never believed OAL could have had such an effect, in my case it did.

Russ

One thing to try is to load all slowfire rounds the same.  Slingshot with 4 dummies underneath.  If the group moves but no fliers, then this looks like a slide velocity issue.  Try a shot buff, or remove it if you have one.

RThatcher wrote:I had the same problem with a 9mm 1911. The pistol would shoot 2 separate but very distinct groups, The hand cycled group would print 4 inches low.
After months of looking for the problem it turned out to be cartridge OAL. The barrel was chambered for a 115g HTP at 1.120in. I started shooting Atlanta Arms which was much shorter.
When I went back to the 1.120 all problems went away. I would have never believed OAL could have had such an effect, in my case it did.

Russ

Wow. I have experienced different group locations as well as group size with varying OAL, but find that condition you mention as falling in that mystery category. As Doug Koenig says, "leave no stone unturned" when working on a gun, a load or in shooting techniques to improve.

Martin

KKB barrels are very short chambered compared to a Kart so the smith has to cut the chamber a fair amount.  . measure your chamber length and see what it is.

UPDATE on hand cycle chamber round.

I was not able to get to the range where our RR platform is today, but I was able to do some testing simply shooting prone at 50 yds.

As previously stated I modified the hook, nose or tip of the extractor as suggested, so that it would not come into contact with the brass sidewall in the extractor grove of the brass. Without any doubt, it did make a difference. Using the same gun the same magazines and same ammo there were no extreme first shot flyers.

I will run with this until I can RR the gun/ammo/mags combo. If those tests tell a different story, then I will go the link route as was suggested.

FYI 4.2 grains of VV N310 with Zero 115 JHP-C bullets at 1.240 OAL in .38 Super is a very good combo. At least in this gun it is. Today, 31 degrees, 5.5" barrel, chrono at 1105 fps

Cheers,

Martin

FYI, when I had a Caspian open gun, I had George Smith at EGW do a bit of work on it.  One of the things I had him do was change it from 38 Super to 38 Supercomp as I was getting 38sc brass from USAMU by the 30mm ammo can full (I was Active Duty at the time).  All he did was change extractor tension, maybe a little geometry change, I don't know for sure but I had him make me a spare extractor as a backup for the one he put in the slide.  I can tell you that pistol was incredibly accurate and reliable.  Never had a FTF or FTE that wasn't the fault of the ammo maker (me).  May be worth a call to see what he thinks or may be able to do.

My experience with Super Comp brass is that in some guns the extractor does need minor adjustment. Super is semi-rimmed, whereas Super Comp is considered rimless. Maybe a loosely fit extractor for SC would work in some guns with S brass, but since the SC is rimless, then the tip, or hook of the S brass' extractor other wise may touch the brass sidewall in the extractor groove.

In the past in dealing with these, I just made sure the guns would run, now I know to look further.  It has been proven to me the answer is not always the obvious.

Anybody care to explain how/why the extractor tip touching the side of the brass would make a noticeable difference in POI between hand-cycled/first shot, versus the other shots?

Thanks,
Dave

bdas wrote:Anybody care to explain how/why the extractor tip touching the side of the brass would make a noticeable difference in POI between hand-cycled/first shot, versus the other shots?

Thanks,
Dave

The correction made a difference in my gun for sure. My guess, is, that if the chamber has excess tolerance then any pressure on that round may cause it not be concentric within the chamber. As to why that condition is different for a handcycle round, vs and auto feed/load is beyond me, especially if the slide is pulled completely to rear then let go. Someone above may pay grade will have to chime in otherwise.

Martin