Frustration

First topic message reminder :

If there exists a more frustrating discipline than bullseye pistol, I'd like to know what it might be.

A little over a year in and my scores are hovering around the lower end of sharpshooter.

I've noticed a new trend:

My slow fire scores are gradually improving but it seems they are doing so at the cost of my sustained fire scores.

What is up with that?

bullseye67 wrote:.........During summer months I bring my pistols to the outdoor range, our league shoots indoors year round. I like to set up on the 50M line and shoot for fun. They have some metal swingers several 4 inch and one 8 inch. It reminds me how much fun it is to just "blast away without a care in the world" No scores kept just the "DING DING" of the steel swingers.......

I enjoyed everything you wrote, but especially this.  It's looking at everything from a very different perspective, just enjoying the shooting.  :-)

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate this thread!

I have found that if my focus is the score I leave the match frustrated almost every time. When I focus on trying to execute a smooth and aggressive trigger pull while the dot is hovering in the aiming area I do much better. My best scores have all been somewhat of a surprise to me because my focus was elsewhere. I have even messed my self up looking at posted scores after the CF match and thinking " If I just shoot the same as I did in .22 & CF I will shoot a  great score or I will do this or that" Then I usually perform under expectations in the .45 match and go home frustrated.  Everyone is different - just what its like in my world

It may be frustrating at times, but it sure has improved my shooting in general, which makes up for it.

I'm only a few months into this and when I began I was 50%-60% in the ten ring with the misses being random all over the target. Last Sunday I was shooting 75% in the ten ring with the rest in the nine ring. The interesting part is that I used to shoot steel plates and was about 75%-80% on them. Last Sunday it was raining and too wet to put up targets so I wandered over to the steel range and to my surprise I was 100% on the steel at my normal cadence. I attribute that to better fundamentals such as trigger control and better concentration on the sights. 

Apparently, regardless of scores, my overall shooting is definitely improving, which was my mission in the first place.

As mentioned, I look at it as a competition with myself, not others.

Great thread!
When I was in college (a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away) I was taking organic chemistry and having difficulty with a certain topic.  I went to my professor and told him I was frustrated.  He got a huge grin on his face, leaned back in his chair and said “That’s excellent - frustration must come before learning”.  I wasn’t too pleased with his response, but after thinking about it for awhile I realized he was right.  I remind myself of this whenever I have trouble with something in life.  He was absolutely right.  There are few things in life more satisfying than overcoming an obstacle.
Jeff

DA/SA wrote:It may be frustrating at times, but it sure has improved my shooting in general, which makes up for it.

I'm only a few months into this and when I began I was 50%-60% in the ten ring with the misses being random all over the target. Last Sunday I was shooting 75% in the ten ring with the rest in the nine ring. The interesting part is that I used to shoot steel plates and was about 75%-80% on them. Last Sunday it was raining and too wet to put up targets so I wandered over to the steel range and to my surprise I was 100% on the steel at my normal cadence. I attribute that to better fundamentals such as trigger control and better concentration on the sights. 

Apparently, regardless of scores, my overall shooting is definitely improving, which was my mission in the first place.

As mentioned, I look at it as a competition with myself, not others.

 This is lost on a lot of shooters.

  I have tried to make that point many times with some of the folks starting out (and some veterans) in the action pistol sports, after watching them dump (two handed) two or three magazines all around a 6-8" steel plate at 20 feet and not hitting it. Most of the ones that come try their hand at BE, typically don't come back stating that it's too hard or too boring.....the ones that stay and get it, see their action pistol scores grow exponentially. 
It's the self-challenge and improvement (slow as that may be, sometimes) that I enjoy most in this sport, like most of you.

TonyH, yesterday, I spent the end of the day shooting at 50 yards.  Things went better than expected, but from looking at the target later, I decided I REALLY need to find a way to improve my trigger control.

When I was done, I walked down to the end of the range and just shot at their steel plate, also at 50 yards.  It was refreshing to hear the PING after almost every shot.  This was with 22.  So I'm back to trying to find a way to "see" my trigger control, or lack of.  Maybe one of the laser kits.  

Back on track, it's much more enjoyable to concentrate on what has gotten better over time, than to be frustrated by what is still needed.  
Are you doing better than BEFORE, or not as good as what you HOPE FOR.
Is the glass HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY?
It seems to me, it's all how you look at things......

Are you doing better than BEFORE, or not as good as what you HOPE FOR.
Is the glass HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY?
It seems to me, it's all how you look at things......

Hence the quote by Henry Ford in my post. Be the Little Engine That Could!

mikemyers wrote:  So I'm back to trying to find a way to "see" my trigger control, or lack of.  Maybe one of the laser kits.  

Aren't you using a dot scope?

Perhaps stated already. Redundancy can't hurt. In fact, shooting is redundancy.

If you do not have a clear, identifiable, repeatable shot process, develop one. Fine tune the shot process until you can clearly identify that by following the process you get a result which is within reason of your hold, the equipment and ammo.

Working backwards, if your ammo and gun are only capable of a 5.5" group then DO NOT expect your score to be near 100%. It is not going to happen. Additionally, if you have a 5.5" wobble, then DO NOT expect your score to be near 95%. The above assumes you don't do anything drastic to make things worse. Having reasonable realistic expectations is critical to not beating yourself up. Stay positive. If you shoot a poor shot, it is not because you can't shoot, it is because something broke down in your shot process delivery. Understand the difference.

More on process. Assuming your process delivers the best you and your equipment can deliver, then work on delivering repeatable, consistent delivery of each shot following your process. The score will take care of itself. Heck you could shoot on plain paper, the score doesn't matter. If your groups at whatever distance are basically round, then your process is likely being followed. You are letting the gun fire, contrasted with making it fire.

Occasionally, shoot on a real target to determine or measure progress, but don't rely on score as a training aid. The shot process is the training, the score measures how the training may be advancing. If your groups are round, and centered around your aiming area, you really can't expect more than that. That condition is the true measure of your ability and the ability of your equipment at that time.

Put another way. Your ability, your success or failure should not be measured by a single shot, single target, a single match, or a single day. yet we often tend to do this. You likely wouldn't measure your life by a single second, minute, hour, day, week, month or even year, so don't measure your shooting progression that finite either. It is a continual journey, sometimes with detours, setbacks, wrong turns and breakdowns. Stay the course, develop and follow shot process, your destination will be reached.

Martin

Martin, Well said. Thank you.

Martin:
Nicely worded and well thought out.
Thanks

DA/SA wrote:.....Aren't you using a dot scope?....

Yep, which is telling me that the gun moves as I fire.

That is worse than a wobble.
The question for me is what to do about it.
I found several ideas here: https://blog.springfield-armory.com/improve-your-trigger-pull-with-these-6-tips

Practice isn't enough.  What's needed is perfect practice.  
For that to happen, one needs to know specifically what to change.

It's like a fan that wobbles.  Nothing will fix it, until you balance it.
Or a bad electrical connection.  Nothing will fix it, until you figure out exactly where it is.
Or wobble.  Nothing will fix it if the trigger finger is disturbing the aim.

Specifically for me, yes, I can see the red dot move when the gun fires.  
Need to find out why it moves, or find a different technique that minimizes movement.

When dry firing on a blank wall, experiment with the following:

Finger placement: Try to find the placement that most closely results in a direct, front to back, motion.

Grip tightness: The tighter the grip, the less likely the trigger finger will move the gun. Caveat: Too tight may increase wobble/shake. Too tight makes it harder to move the trigger finger. Too loose allows the pressure of the finger to outweigh the pressure of the grip thereby moving the gun. Experimentation will get you there. For me, tighter is better.

Finger speed(this is where I struggle the most): Too slow and the dreaded chicken(finger) will rear his ugly head. Too fast and you just shot a 6 at 8 o'clock. Constantly moving, with ever increasing pressure and you just punched out the center of the X. Feel the trigger moving. If you can't feel it, it either isn't moving at all (don't be a chicken!) or it moved so fast, you couldn't feel it (this is why they call it trigger control).

I know you've done it. I know I've done it. Now to be able to repeat it 60, 70, 99% of the time. And with a target...and a ticking timer...

My personal issue is vision. Not vision problems per se, just that when I see a target, I struggle to execute my process. I can shoot tight groups on my kitchen wall (dry fire) or on a blank target (live fire), but when there's a bull and a timer, it doesn't always happen.

BUT, as my shooting buddy says, sometimes we experience moments of brilliance! And that's why I can't wait for the next training session or match!

mspingeld wrote:.......Finger placement: Try to find the placement that most closely results in a direct, front to back, motion.......

One quick post, then I'm going to just read and practice for a while.  

The best way I could try what you said was to hold the gun up as if to fire, not cocked, and just apply/release/apply/release pressure on the trigger.  From watching the red dot, it was obvious after a few seconds that the gun was moving, and was very repeatable as to where and how much.  Half an hour later, I found a place for my fingers and my palm to rest against the gun, so the gun stayed put.  I've been trying to follow Brian's suggestions for grip.  It's fascinating to vary things, one at a time, and see what each does for where the gun is aimed, and what it does when you apply pressure to the trigger.  I measured the trigger pull on my Model 41, and it's 3 pounds.  So that's the minimum force I'm applying to the gun to get it to fire.  Fingers, and bony section under palm, (no thumb) all need to apply an equal force in the appropriate direction.  If not, the gun will move from the three pounds pressing on the trigger.

I was having some issues with score going backwards. I kept thinking to myself what am I doing wrong. Only if I could see what I was doing wrong. Than it hit me. I use to video tape my son bowling. Would send the footage to his coach to review. Talk about a game changer for him. I'm looking at the top of my range box. Setting there is my cell phone. I grabbed it turned on the selfie mode on the camera and watched what my hand was doing as I shot. I found all kind of little issues I'm working on correcting now.

NKF, you can post the video here like I did a year or so back, and you'll get an earful of things to improve.  I didn't like hearing how bad I was, but I got a great list of things to correct.  You need to post your video first someplace online, then post a link to the video here.  I'm pretty sure you can do this with Google or iCloud, and there are other options people have told me about.

One more thing.- I screwed up in what I wrote up above.  What I wrote was correct about the fingers and so on making the gun move, but when I tried it again later today, following Brian's advice to put pressure on the trigger *AND* using a smooth trigger press, the gun had long since moved to a stable position before it fired.  Yeah, the pressure incorrectly applied to the trigger made the gun move, but with a long, smooth, trigger press, after correcting my aim, the dot didn't move when the gun went 'click'.  When I released my finger from the trigger, the gun *did* move, quite a bit, until I did it right.  I'm still trying to put my fingers and hand in the "perfect" place, but even when they were NOT in the right place, as long as I worked the trigger the way I think Brian meant, all was OK.  One more benefit from following Brian's advice.

If you get stuck with the video posting, send me a PM with the type of phone you have, and whether you're connected to Google or iCloud.  Put your phone in a spot where it films you from the side, so your face, eyes, hands, etc can be seen.  If it's an iPhone, or a newer Android, you can record in slow motion.


https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/top-4-sites-to-share-private-home-movies-with-family-friends/

a friend and I used to joke a bit when we shot Service Rifle, 

our mantra was 

I suck, 

but today, I will suck a bit less

then spend the rest of the day, match, practice, whatever working on shooting better, 

ended up I did not really suck at all, and he even less, but we had that kind of relationship (brothers from another mother type) where we could chat like that and know as bad as it sounded, it was meant to be positive

I hear you but if you think Bullseye is frustrating try golf!!!  It is twice as bad and almost as expensive.

Golf and Bulllseye are very similiar games.. basically you have no one to blame other than yourself

Allen Barnett wrote:I hear you but if you think Bullseye is frustrating try golf!!!  It is twice as bad and almost as expensive.

Frustration for me was when I focused on my score and not my shot process (golf or bullseye).  My biggest frustration in golf was getting beat by one of my buddies dad's who only used 3 clubs (putter, 7 & 5 irons).  I was a 8 handicapper and shot a 79!  That was 40 years ago and I still get tense thinking about it!
- Dave

MikeMyers, I have a friend help we with that. It is amazing what technology has done to all sports. However, once I'm able to start shooting again I will post some footage with my 1911. We are coming close to our club season end. I'm starting to look for a outdoor range that I can work on my somewhat skill set to improve on.

NKF, my suggestion, set up, so the person can film you from the side, load 5 rounds, and have your friend record one long recording for all five shots, and a little extra before/after.  Two times ago, I did that, and someone posted I was blinking after the shot.  I never realized that.  

I would delete the word "somewhat" from what you wrote.  You've got to complete 6th grade before starting 7th.  It's not reasonable to think you should do everything right, until you learn all those "everythings", and if you're like me, unless you've got a coach, you'll probably do some of them wrong until either someone corrects you, or you learn on your own.  Now that you have time, watch all those videos again, and again, and again, and do all of it in dry fire, until you can do it without having to think about it.  (I'm still in the "I need to think about it" phase.). Keith Sanderson said for every "live fire" shot you take, you should "dry fire" 100 shots.  That's not a typo.

Mikemyers, with just watching my hands I have learned a lot. Funny what you think you feel and what you see can be 2 different things.

I never thought about videoing my face as I shoot. Thank you for the suggestion.