Ergonomic grips

I left a response in the new thread about Dick Horton grips, 
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11075-dick-horton-match-grips-new-e-mail-address#99484
then got this suggestion:

 by zanemoseley Today at 10:55 am
Mike you might want to start a new thread discussing ergonomic grips so we don't clutter up Dick's thread. Long story short is some people love ergo grips and some despise them and prefer traditional slabs. Some people like finger grooves and some don't. The grip pressure is felt a bit different with ergos versus slabs.. All things aside it's very important that ergo grips fit the hand properly which is why he asks for a photocopy of your hand to take several measurements from. I got a Steyr Evo10 with medium LH grips and loved them, they fit pretty much like a glove out of the box, then i got an older Walther GSP with LH grips and they fit my hand like a 2x4", I fixed it some with dremel work but still nowhere near as comfortable as my Steyr. Again, I'd start a new thread as I'm sure there are a lot of opinions and experiences people will share with you.


This is what I was asking:

Forgetting how beautiful these grips are (each one, in its own way, is a work of art!), how much of a difference does this make when shooting?  It looks like the custom grip should give you better control over the firearm, such that that your hand and the gun will "become one".  I guess my question is whether most people buy these because of how beautiful they look, or does it also result in better scores?  Does it just make it "easier" to shoot better?

Also, is this more important on the smaller or larger calibers?  .....or is it the same for both?  Articles such as the recent one from Zins suggested how to grip the gun so it's resting against the firm part of the hand, not the soft fleshy part.  With these grips your hand is only going to grip one way, so the hand matches the grip and vice versa.  Is this going to accomplish what Brian was saying was so important?

The order form suggests "Please include several Xerox photocopies of your shooting hand with the machine set on the lightest setting to show detail of the palm.  A white towel placed over the hand will enhance the definition considerably."

I assume this means your four fingers next to each other, and your thumb pointing away towards the top.  I guess this is to be used for marking the wood.

For those of you who already have these - are they "for show", or do you use them all the time when you are shooting?

I have not a clue how the guy would do it, but I would imagine the image would be measured (finger spacing, thumb etc) to complete the grips, 

I can't imagine using them for show,  


I do know some guys who made there own years ago, 
one started with wood, and took forever to get right for his hand, 

the others did it an easier way, they bought a pair of generic grips, loaded the grips up with accraglass, and when it was still not quite set, they put on a pair of rubber or latex tight gloves and hold it until it set up a bit, 

trim/sand a tiny bit and shoot, 

keep in mind, I'm not at the same level as the Big Guys are here, and most of the folks I shoot with still use factory grips (slabs) or some Volquartsen stuff on the Ruger, 
I have some some Herrett's , and have a few sets for various pistols, and like them, 

I'm not at a level to say if they hurt or help my score, still learning, when I get a chance to shoot

A couple of years ago I surveyed 20 high masters, many of them Camp Perry winners. My question was a little different: Why do elite shooters typically use slabs for 45 but ergonomic for 22?

Here's a summary of the responses:

James Mormon said; on an ortho grip the pressure your hand exerts on the gun is spread out across the whole grip. This is good for a light recoiling gun but bad for a 1911 because it gives you a false sense of how hard you are gripping. To recover from recoil you need a good grip and with slabs the pressure is only on the front and backstrap instead of the whole grip.

Jon Eulette added an interesting point: 99% of ortho grips don't fit properly. This implies that, if a shooter does choose the ortho route, he'd better make sure they're fit properly or he's making things worse, not better.

In the interest of consistency, John Zurek said he advocates shooting a 22 conversion with slab grips.

I have 3 pair of Horton grips, M-41,M-52 and 1911.  Now mind you that I shoot as a hobby and although I enjoy it I don't devote the time to become a Master shooter, I have many other interests that takes up my days.  So take what I say with a grain of salt but Horton grips have immediately added 10-15 points to my scores.  The reason is I have large hands (not Len V large) and long fingers and slabs, as much as I want to use them just don't work for me.  Probably due to the fact that I just don't practice enough with slabs.  That being said, the Horton grips I can grip fairly loose and still control the firearm without the feeling that it will get away from me.  When I use slabs I end up milking the grips for fear of the firearm, especially the 45, getting away and when I tense up my fingers I loose trigger control and the shot gets away from me.  With the Horton grips fitting snug I can hold the firearm loosely and have greater trigger control without me milking the grips.
I know that many will say I'm wrong in what I'm doing but it works for me.  Would I like to be a Master shooter?  Absolutely but I don't have the time to devote to it.  For me the ortho grips work because of my situation.  Call me whatever but the grips have raised my scores to SS and if it wasn't for that darn 45 I would probably be Expert. LOL
Now with all that being said I did shoot a 93 slow fire this morning in practice using slabs and my old HS SharpShooter with an LSP barrel.  Go figure, but then we all shoot better in practice.

Virgil

Firstly everyone will have a different experience, this was mine.

When I got my Pardini 6" I had 3 set of grips ready for it.
1) Of course the orthos that came with it in my size
2) I ordered a set of Dick Horton orthos with a 1911 grip angle
3) I also ordered a set of printed 1911 grips from Andrew @ precisiontargetpistolgrips.com

The Pardini grips needed some tweaking to fit OK, the DH grips fit near perfect but also needed a little adjustment and of course the 1911 grips fit like 1911 grips but after much testing I decided to aggressively stipple them <== more on that.

I shot each one for about month each, many hours of dry fire each and around 2,000 rounds each.
Basically after the first 500 rounds with each grips there was no difference between them, the scores were basically the same.  Then I aggressively stippled the 1911 plastic grip and my average picked up 8 points (in 500 shots).  Why? well there is a hot spot on it now that kind of pokes me.  It is even just a tad uncomfortable but now I grip the gun 100% the same every time.

The thing I need to work on the most is consistent grip & pressure the 1911 grips give me the best feedback.  Also when shooting a match, with the orthos my CF (1911) scores dropped but usually came back by the 45 match.

- Dave
I shoot a lot of air pistol (LP10e w/othos) I've spent many hours modifying the grips to get them to fit.  My scores now are consistently in the mid 550's to low 560's (578 high) so I shoot them well, I also enjoy shooting them.

The Europeans are not afraid to pile on the putty to grips to make them fit, this seems to not be the case in the States.  You occasionally see a bit of moleskin or leather added to a grip but few seem to cut away wood, and add epoxy in large amounts.

I'm probably the one with my head on not-straight.  I look at all those grips, and think how beautiful they are.  I'm thinking about looks, not function.  I wonder what would happen if Dick got a 3D printer, and made grips from white plastic, with the intent being to do what you've shown in that photo.  

From what everyone has said here, I've given up on any thoughts of getting a set for my 1911.  I think the primary concern there needs to be dealing with the forces generated when the gun fires, and using the proper body parts to react to them.  Similarly, it seems to me that for something like my Model 41, where the grips become something firmly attached to both the gun and to my body, the more the gun is attached to "me", the better off I'll be.

I've already bought a set of wood grips for sale in the Classified section of this forum.  Once I get those, I'll see how I feel about the whole concept.

Back in the 70s, I made a grip for my then Free Pistol out of wood dough.  The gun was a HS fluted barrel.  I wrapped the gun in saran wrap.  Screwed 1/8 inch oak slabs on the frame.  Provided a soda straw over the screws.  And layered on a big wad of wood dough around my hand holding the gun.  This made a very good grip.  I added and subtracted dough easily.  Even glued chips back on.  The dough was kind of fragile.  But it worked.  It still saddens me missing Coach and Mentor LtC Miller. 

More recently I got a 208s grip from Nill that fits me perfect right out of the box.  Another grip from Nill for my Steyr AP isn't even close.  One thing I should have got for the AP is the 7deg model.  Either that or condition the muscles on the top of my forearm to pull my wrist naturally right.

Jack,

Reading your post reminded me of a grip I made for one of the kids I coached a couple of years ago.  He adored the free pistol grip I made for him.  I couldn't have fit him any better.  He said, "I wish I could have this grip on all my guns."  That was the day I bought my first 3d scanner.  I took that grip scanned it (we'd added a lot of putty in odd places) and then digitally cropped off the free pistol specific bits.  The resulting grip was then printed for his air pistol and his .22.  Same custom grip on three very different guns.  If you'd like, I could take that grip you made along time ago with all that wood dough, scan it and 3d print it for just about any gun you'd like.  Take a look at my website (PrecisionTargetPistolGrips.com) for more information and search this sight for lots of positive reviews of my work.

Thanks and let me know if you have any questions along the way.

All best, 
Andrew Berryhill