Ergonomic Grips

The Dick Horton Grip thread can be found here:
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11075-dick-horton-match-grips-new-e-mail-address

I posted a question in that thread last year, and Zanemoseley suggested the following:

Mike you might want to start a new thread discussing ergonomic grips so we don't clutter up Dick's thread. Long story short is some people love ergo grips and some despise them and prefer traditional slabs. Some people like finger grooves and some don't. The grip pressure is felt a bit different with ergos versus slabs.. All things aside it's very important that ergo grips fit the hand properly which is why he asks for a photocopy of your hand to take several measurements from. I got a Steyr Evo10 with medium LH grips and loved them, they fit pretty much like a glove out of the box, then i got an older Walther GSP with LH grips and they fit my hand like a 2x4", I fixed it some with dremel work but still nowhere near as comfortable as my Steyr. Again, I'd start a new thread as I'm sure there are a lot of opinions and experiences people will share with you.



Here's what I posted last year, but as was suggested, I'm creating this new thread.
(I'd also like to know roughly how much grips like this can cost:)

Forgetting how beautiful these grips are (each one, in its own way, is a work of art!), how much of a difference does this make when shooting?  It looks like the custom grip should give you better control over the firearm, such that that your hand and the gun will "become one".  I guess my question is whether most people buy these because of how beautiful they look, or does it also result in better scores?  Does it just make it "easier" to shoot better?

Also, is this more important on the smaller or larger calibers?  .....or is it the same for both?  Articles such as the recent one from Zins suggested how to grip the gun so it's resting against the firm part of the hand, not the soft fleshy part.  With these grips your hand is only going to grip one way, so the hand matches the grip and vice versa.  Is this going to accomplish what Brian was saying was so important?

For those of you who already have these - are they "for show", or do you use them all the time when you are shooting?

I'm a newbie but my Rinks are not for show. Imagine never having to care how sweaty or oily your hands are during a match and they pay for themselves

Take this with a grain of salt, because I've only been trying to shoot bullseye for a very short time, but for me ergonomic grips seem to make it easier to get consistent grip pressure. I also find it easier to support the weight of the gun independently of trigger movement when I have a generous shelf under the trigger to rest on my middle finger. The only factory anatomical grips I've used were the ones that came on my IZH-46M air pistol, all others I've made to fit. I think they're good looking, but I don't feel like that's a main reason to use them.

With the 500 gm trigger on AP, I don't think trigger control is as hard, but on the 45 I really notice how much easier it is to keep sight alignment during the trigger pull with the custom grips. For whatever it's worth (which probably isn't much).

Patrick

I don't think the shape of a grip makes a lot of difference in score. We all know shooters that can shoot well with 1911's, free pistols, revolvers and everything in between. A person can shoot good scores with a 2x4 as long as they do everything consistently. A properly fitted ergo grip makes it easier to grasp the pistol in a consistent manner because there are more reference points of contact between the grip and the hand. In the case of wrap-around free pistol grips, it is almost impossible to grasp the pistol except for one way.

I think ergo grips are less useful in bullseye because of temperature differences. High level International matches are shot under nearly identical conditions and top level shooters are incredibly consistent and looking for every last 1/10th of a point. We shoot bullseye in 40's or 50's in spring and fall and 90's or hotter in mid summer. A properly fitting ergo grip at 90 degrees will be loose at 50 degrees and if the shooter uses the same reference points when grasping the pistol, the grip will be different.

One more issue, specific to the 1911 is the sliding trigger. Most guns use a pivoting trigger, so if the angle of the hand changes, the face of the trigger can be changed so the finger moves more-or-less in line (tangential to the axis of rotation). The 1911 trigger moves parallel to the barrel. Using an ergo grip that increases the angle of the hand/wrist means that some of the trigger force is in the vertical direction. I don't know how much that will really be a factor, but it is a concern.

There is one case in which I whole-heartedly recommend ergo grips. I used to shoot with a person who had arthritis in his wrist and couldn't shoot a standard 1911 grip without pain. Increasing the angle allowed him to continue shooting.

SteveT wrote:Specific to the 1911 is the sliding trigger. Most guns use a pivoting trigger, so if the angle of the hand changes, the face of the trigger can be changed so the finger moves more-or-less in line (tangential to the axis of rotation). The 1911 trigger moves parallel to the barrel. Using an ergo grip that increases the angle of the hand/wrist means that some of the trigger force is in the vertical direction. I don't know how much that will really be a factor, but it is a concern.

That is a point that is very interesting for me. I continue to struggle to shoot the 1911 45 consistently well. I have a Rink "semi-ergo" grip for the 1911 - did not like it, although I admit that I did not persevere with it. I have played with different slab thicknesses, material, etc., and recently I have been fiddling with 1911 trigger length. I think that I've got all of that to a just about optimum configuration for my particular hand, and I feel as though I've now got a very consistent "grip" on the 1911 when I shoot. But I now find that too often as I pull the trigger through I have a bad habit of causing the aiming point to drop below the black, with consequent "bad shots". I do not intend to hi-jack this thread and turn it into a debate about grip and trigger fundamentals, but I am now intrigued about the "axial" versus "parallel" trigger movement. I need to noodle on that one.

As for ergonomic grips on my 22 & CF guns. I love them! I started in Bullseye just over one year ago with an older Walther GSP which was already fitted with an MRBO Rink that, just by pure fluke, fitted me like a glove. I subsequently sold the gun, but kept the grip as a "pattern". When I switched to the Pardini's, I could not get on with the less steep angle standard OEM and Rink grips. After two attempts I got some custom Rink "upright" GSP style grips and I am very happy with them - still took a bit of minor carving and they are still not perfect, but pretty darn close. I would not use anything else. The 32ACP in particular is a tough gun to get perfect, the rather sharp recoil of the factory Fiocchi XTP60 ammo "jumps" the gun straight back in my hand (with the less steep Euro standard grips I found that the recoil impulse quickly gave me pain which would have led to Tedinitis). This is just my personal experience, others MMV!

radjag wrote:...........I do not intend to hi-jack this thread and turn it into a debate about grip and trigger fundamentals, but I am now intrigued about the "axial" versus "parallel" trigger movement. I need to noodle on that one.......

The reason this thread was started is because someone wrote to me:

     Mike you might want to start a new thread discussing ergonomic grips so we don't clutter up Dick's thread. 

Please don't worry about "hi-jacking" this thread.  What you're describing sounds very interesting, and this thread would be a perfect place to add on that question and answers, not to mention that you've now got me very curious about this too.  The more different directions this thread goes, the better.  They're all relevant to why this thread exists.  

Thanks!!!!!

Do a search on "ortho" grips on the list.

Then walk down the line at bigger matches and Perry and count slabs versus ortho grips on all the relays.

Then check out the grips for the guys at the top of the bulletin.

Then you're going to do what you want to anyway.

CR

Cecil, can I ask what type of grips you prefer?  .....and more importantly, why?

All I have is my own opinion regarding my Pardini, from a guy who shoots 275's to 280's consistently, have broken 290 twice.

Vlad told me I was a large, even though the measurements on their site showed I was a Medium.

Ordered Large, too big.
Swapped for Medium, too small.
Tried a Horton, pinched me, didn't like it.
Bought a Rink... ahh Nirvana.

And I lived happily ever after, The End.

I just put these Rinks on my Accuracy X. I have Rinks on my Pardini and they are great. I haven't decided how I feel about them on a 1911 yet but early results are promising.

Slight thread hijack - David, how is the Dane recoil system?  Seems expensive, must be good results?

Oh and Nill for me please. I found Nill to be most comfortable on 1911 and definitely most true to size of my hand.

No big secret.  Until I give up shooting in the NIT and Presidents, I'll probably be using slab grips.  

CR

Ok guys call me "old school" but my venture into Bullseye shooting came by way of the Missouri National Guard pistol team.  As a new shooter I was not allowed to shoot any form of ortho/ergonomic grips period!  The closest thing I was allowed to use were factory Smith Model 41 grips, which were way to big for my small hands.  The reasoning behind this I was told cause if you can't shoot the "Service Pistol" well you are no good for us.  Today I carry on with the teaching from my military days.  None of my Bullseye pistols carry nothing but slab grips.  When I was actively competing for the Guard back in the late 80's and early 90's I carried an Expert card for both indoor and outdoor.  I am hoping to start moving back up the ladder but I am going to do it my way with slabs, after all that is what you have to shoot for EIC!

Tripscape wrote:Slight thread hijack - David, how is the Dane recoil system?  Seems expensive, must be good results?

Oh and Nill for me please. I found Nill to be most comfortable on 1911 and definitely most true to size of my hand.

It seems effective with my short line load of 4.3 WST and 160gr SWC. Worth trying.

Haha $275 worth? Is it that good?

I shoot both ergonomic grips and slabs, depending on the type of pistol in play. If I had to choose only one, I would shoot slabs all the time.

It gives me a lot less to think about. My Ruger MkIII before I put the Rink on it was small enough that I always had total try and replicate my grip. And if there was any bit of oil on the gun or my palms got sweaty it's more things to focus on. Less thinking and more attention to trigger pull I suppose has been my short experience. Also this summer, practicing for the winter season, I noticed a benefit from my hand always being in the same spot is my finger being in the same spot too. I used to think a lot about the placement of my finger on the trigger, but I've (last words) been impressing myself with the results of just wrapping my finger around the Rink and using the same spot it gives me with the rest of the finger flat on the gun. I think I should only be focusing on the trigger pull, the target (still) and how the dot bobs on it; I believe the Rinks help get me further there.

I did try the Volquartsen laminate ~anatomical grips but they have a very slick lacquer on them and want to spin without the sweat. I ordered some clear grit spray to try and save them but concluded to buy another Rink and get the right think from the start.

My Ruger Rink isn't quite as comfortable as my Pardini's but I'm not sure the gun could accommodate much better because of the shape. It does mean removing the grip to access the mainspring housing but luckily you don't have to split the halves.

Just a thought - instead of sending off paper sketches with lots of measurements, here's another way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5zCbFGJQJc

Whoever will be making the grips can take all the measurements he wants.   :-)

I loved my nil ergo grips, but no matter what I did I could not get them to stop interfering with the grip safety. A buddy had the same issue and had to chop so much off the backside that I decided just to sell mine and practice with the slaves. I use a j-hook with slabs now.