Let's talk water chemistry and stainless pin tumbling.

First topic message reminder :

Here's the deal. I've been using the stainless tumbling method of brass cleaning for about 3 years. Lately I've been using a 45 casings worth of Lemishine and a drizzle of liquid Dawn with my unknown PH tap water. It cleans the brass but over time the color looks dull and tarnished, still clean but not "pretty" clean. If I have new brass it stays shiny after the first cleaning or two but my pistol brass that gets cleaned a lot get dull, I would expect my rifle brass would look dull over repeated cleanings.

So where should I start? The case full of Lemishine and drizzle of Dawn sure doesn't seem like too much for 500 dirty cases. So is it just my water PH? I really wanted to avoid buying water jugs but I guess I could try it.

Any ideas? It's kind of a cosmetic issue but when I tumble once fired brass and see how nice and shiny it is I can't help but wish it all looked that good.

Also do you think the brass that is dull now will stay dull or can I get it back to looking like new money,

Iosso Brass Case Cleaner @ Amazon (among others). Soak cases and agitate for 20 seconds or so in plastic/glass container, rinse, tie in towel, dry in clothes dryer. Save cleaner for use 3-4 times. Towel polishes cases nicely. Cleaning cases is not neurosurgery!

Wonder what would happen by adding some Iosso to the stainless pin water?

Can we possibly make this even more complicated?

We can try

I'm telling you guys, it's the chlorine and fluoride...................

Drying after ultrasound.   

Shake off loose water in towel.   Then I put dog training pads on a table and set the cases on it, primer end up.   Let dry for a day - less if house is dry in winter.

That way it is one less piece of equipment to buy.

Wes Lorenz wrote:I'm telling you guys, it's the chlorine and fluoride...................

nope, 

it's the jet contrails,,




I am a bit of a Neanderthal, I still use my big Dillon Vibratory tumbler, 
and I take it outside to run and separate the media outside,

Well here's a small batch I ran with Meguiar's Deep Crystal car wash. Ran 2 hours then changed water and new soap then ran 2 more hours. Still clean but not "new coin" clean. I'm kind of wondering if once it gets to this point if it will ever clean up all the way or if it's etched forever. Guess I need to get a case of new Starline to see lol.

I went the steel pin route once and did a couple of batches and found it to be way too time consuming compared to just dumping an ammo can of cases into the vibratory tumbler of corn cob media, (outside with no lid) then into the media separator, and done!

Anyway, I couldn't imagine letting them run for hours in the pins, as my cases were like new polished brass after about twenty minutes in Dawn and a pinch of Lemishine.

That's what makes me think either have PH issues or used too much Lemishine and etched the brass. Does make me want to try new brass.

Now you're making me think, and on a Holiday...

Someone brought me a pile of .40 cases and they were all dull and bronze colored and I suspected that the bucket had filled up with rain water and left that way and discolored them.

I ran them through the pin tumbler and they came out dull and bronze colored, just like they went in. I did a bit of research and found that under certain conditions, the zinc (being less noble) can be leached from the brass causing it to change color and affect the finish. If I'm not mistaken, it also possibly weakened the cases. I loaded a bunch up and shot them at a plate rack and just left them on the ground will all of the other abandoned cases in the dirt.

Yeah I'll give the Mr. Clean a try I just happened to have this car wash already so tried it.

Lots of car wash soaps have citrus(attacks the zinc) of some sort in them as grease cutting agents, they also contain surficants which in a closed agitation makes no sense.

OK. I give up! Case cleaning IS equivalent to neurosurgery!

The title "water chemistry" caught my attention, and I can make a few comments.  The initial pH of your water doesn't matter if you are adding lemishine (citric acid, I think) which will acidify the water, depending on concentration.  Acidic conditions will etch metal and will leach zinc from brass, weakening it.  Use of unknown stuff (car wash, etc.) can add unknown chemicals. Ammonia containing compounds are used to "age" brass and give it a dark patina - look familiar?  It also can weaken brass.  Unless you are using something specifically designed for the task, you need to know what is in your mix and the potential effects.

I use crushed walnut with a bit of mineral spirits in a tumbler.  I get clean brass, no need to dry and it can be used immediately.  

Note to self: If my "Brass-cleaning Plan" is longer than my "Shot Plan", Perhaps I should reassess!

Iosso "Case Cleaner"  seems to be Phosphoric Acid plus surfactant in form of "detergent" and water.   SS method uses an even weaker acid plus surfactant, but the process involves considerable friction with pins.   From a distance, I see common idea of acid and wetning agent and friction.  Time in solution is a significant difference.

If Summer ever arrives and I clean a year's worth of cases, I will evaluate shorter times than 3 hours.  Today at last I was able to evaluate lighter loads using Precision Delta 147 Flat Points.  Everything was still working at 3.7 grains of WSF.  When weather again gets above 60 F, I will try lighter loads.

I think I've got it. I ran a batch of 400 45 cases, 2 hours with Dawn soap only, I left out the Lemi Shine. I'll take a picture when it's dry but so far it looks WAY better.

Zane:   details please.   SS pins used?  what machine?  How much water and how much Dawn?
Which version of Dawn?  How difficult was it to clean off soap film on cases?   Big deal if indeed Lemi Shine is not actually needed.  . . .  and then it will be interesting to see how the finish changes with time.     Today was the first time in weeks when the weather was good enough to cut grass (and to clean cases, but grass was in great need of cutting)

Here's the morning after running.



I run the Frankford Arsenal tumbler, I'm still using the pins still that came with it. I use just the plain Dawn dish soap, blue in color, I used a good squirt of it. Ran about 400 pieces of brass for 2 hours, filled 80-85% with water. I drained then put fresh water in it and tumbled again for a few seconds to rinse the brass. Air dry on an old towel.

I use the STM kit as instructed with 1/8 tsp Lemishine and blue dawn. I follow the instructions exactly and don't use too much Lemishine and results are great every time.

Joel

Wow 1/8 of a teaspoon, that is a tiny amount. I'll see if I can find an 1/8 tsp measuring cup. Also when I clean new brass I tend to get better results, like when I got new Lapua rifle brass even if I used my old amount of Lemi Shine it would get super shiny. I think its when you continually clean the brass with too much Lemi Shine you get dull brass. I'm glad to see you can reverse the dulled brass.

So this is show off your shiny brass thread?

I posted my process on the first page. Some of these are picked up from the ground that were totally brown. I have no problems, and don't take it too seriously. Its a huge step forward from my vibratory tumbler. Cases are cleaner in less time.

The post above me has me beat for shinny new looking brass.

I just yesterday purchased at Cabelas a Frankfor Arsenal tumbler.  The bigger one for 1000 cases. 
First batch was 7.5# 45 brass of misc headstamps from Herters to IMI Match and Starline.  Mostly still with spent primer. 
Used no pins.  Used only 1/2 the pouch of blue cleaner provided in the FA kit.  One half hour tumbling and the brass outside is clean and shiney.  I am impressed.  Inside the brass not so impressive. But right now I wonder 'Who cares?'  I dumped the load into a sink with a screened drain.  Then rinsed with running water while hand turning over  the pile like mixing cheese on macaroni.   After the rest of the day drying on a big towel, I can deprime. 

I am just feeling my way into this wet cleaning.  But so far it beats the heck out of that dusty walnut crap.  Dryer sheets or not

Jack, you need to get in the habit of depriming your brass before wet tumbling. If not you're going to have trapped water that could make its way into your finished cartridges. Also why did you run with no pins?