Let's talk water chemistry and stainless pin tumbling.

First topic message reminder :

Here's the deal. I've been using the stainless tumbling method of brass cleaning for about 3 years. Lately I've been using a 45 casings worth of Lemishine and a drizzle of liquid Dawn with my unknown PH tap water. It cleans the brass but over time the color looks dull and tarnished, still clean but not "pretty" clean. If I have new brass it stays shiny after the first cleaning or two but my pistol brass that gets cleaned a lot get dull, I would expect my rifle brass would look dull over repeated cleanings.

So where should I start? The case full of Lemishine and drizzle of Dawn sure doesn't seem like too much for 500 dirty cases. So is it just my water PH? I really wanted to avoid buying water jugs but I guess I could try it.

Any ideas? It's kind of a cosmetic issue but when I tumble once fired brass and see how nice and shiny it is I can't help but wish it all looked that good.

Also do you think the brass that is dull now will stay dull or can I get it back to looking like new money,

zanemoseley wrote:Jack, you need to get in the habit of depriming your brass before wet tumbling. If not you're going to have trapped water that could make its way into your finished cartridges. Also why did you run with no pins?

Just experimenting.  It is too early to have habits.  Besides, doing things off your declared normal is my way of doing things
Right now I do not have a convenient way to easily separate pins after running.  I will dream up something my way.
I will deprime these separately, which I usually do anyway. 
Seems to me having clean brass right out of the gun is desirable.  No yucky dusty leady brass right at the start of reloading.  There might be some muddy residue on depriming, but I will deal with that as I see it. 
I usually do not go full progressive on the Dillon.

zanemoseley wrote:Jack, you need to get in the habit of depriming your brass before wet tumbling. If not you're going to have trapped water that could make its way into your finished cartridges. Also why did you run with no pins?

I’ve found that depriming is not necessary. Nor are pins. The inside may not get super clean but it is clean enough. I also found that lemishine and dawn clean as well or better than the store bought solutions.

zanemoseley wrote:Wow 1/8 of a teaspoon, that is a tiny amount. I'll see if I can find an 1/8 tsp measuring cup. Also when I clean new brass I tend to get better results, like when I got new Lapua rifle brass even if I used my old amount of Lemi Shine it would get super shiny. I think its when you continually clean the brass with too much Lemi Shine you get dull brass. I'm glad to see you can reverse the dulled brass.

Yikes, it is possible that it is 1/4 tsp. I will check when I get home and update tomorrow. Yes, too much Lemishine is the shiny brass enemy. 

Thanks,

Joel

I use a 9mm case of lemishine

The blue product furnished with my new FA tumbler by itself and no pins produced very nice clean brass outside.  Anybody know what that product is?  I used only 1/2 packet and hold the rest in an old pill bottle.

What exactly is your lemonshine supposed to do? 

The cleaned brass now is being sized by an RCBS FL carbide die and is going through very slick.  I even have tried a few on an expander plug.  Very slick.
I have over 1/2 case of Starline Zins ammo to wash next.  I think I will again not use pins.  Seems to me that pins might be one of those things like trimming or weighing brass.  Not needed and only consumes time in a step of separating.

Hello,

I've been monitoring this thread for a while and while I won't gum things up with my techniques/rituals/formulas, I will add....I find that the pins add a very important element to the process.  They, for lack of a better word, deburr the brass.  Where I shoot, the cases land on concrete slabs and get quite nicked up.  After tumbling with pins, they are clean and smooth (especially the case mouths).

Jim

Jack H wrote:The blue product furnished with my new FA tumbler by itself and no pins produced very nice clean brass outside.  Anybody know what that product is?  I used only 1/2 packet and hold the rest in an old pill bottle.

What exactly is your lemonshine supposed to do? 

The cleaned brass now is being sized by an RCBS FL carbide die and is going through very slick.  I even have tried a few on an expander plug.  Very slick.
I have over 1/2 case of Starline Zins ammo to wash next.  I think I will again not use pins.  Seems to me that pins might be one of those things like trimming or weighing brass.  Not needed and only consumes time in a step of separating.

The Lemishine is, fundamentally, citric acid.  Citric acid is used up in the metal finishing industry for stainless passivation and other things where other acids used to be used.

This person used it on other brass stuff using a pH of 3 (which seems very acidic to me) and Mechanical abrasion. Tumbling the brass with or without pins is our “mechanical scrubbing”. As always YMMV.
https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Restore-Brass-Using-Citric-Acid/

The pins clean the inside of the case.  They will clean primer pockets too if primers are removed. 

David

To much chemistry here for me!!!  It took me three times to get past Organic Chemistry in college.  Had to drop it twice or was going to flunk it!!!  LOL

This is more inorganic (ionic) chemistry here.

Yeah I know but I sucked at that to!!  The high school that I went to was so small (22 in graduating class) that I never had any Chemistry until college.

1joel1 wrote:

zanemoseley wrote:Wow 1/8 of a teaspoon, that is a tiny amount. I'll see if I can find an 1/8 tsp measuring cup. Also when I clean new brass I tend to get better results, like when I got new Lapua rifle brass even if I used my old amount of Lemi Shine it would get super shiny. I think its when you continually clean the brass with too much Lemi Shine you get dull brass. I'm glad to see you can reverse the dulled brass.

Yikes, it is possible that it is 1/4 tsp. I will check when I get home and update tomorrow. Yes, too much Lemishine is the shiny brass enemy. 

Thanks,

Joel

Yep, my bad. It is 1/4 tsp.

Joel

zanemoseley wrote:Here's the deal. I've been using the stainless tumbling method of brass cleaning for about 3 years. Lately I've been using a 45 casings worth of Lemishine and a drizzle of liquid Dawn with my unknown PH tap water. It cleans the brass but over time the color looks dull and tarnished, still clean but not "pretty" clean. If I have new brass it stays shiny after the first cleaning or two but my pistol brass that gets cleaned a lot get dull, I would expect my rifle brass would look dull over repeated cleanings.

So where should I start? The case full of Lemishine and drizzle of Dawn sure doesn't seem like too much for 500 dirty cases. So is it just my water PH? I really wanted to avoid buying water jugs but I guess I could try it.

Any ideas? It's kind of a cosmetic issue but when I tumble once fired brass and see how nice and shiny it is I can't help but wish it all looked that good.

Also do you think the brass that is dull now will stay dull or can I get it back to looking like new money,

I've been down that road until a good friend of mine in Missouri gave me this hint. FIRST AND FOREMOST DEPRIME ALL CASES. When pin tumbling I use 1/4tsp of citric acid and "3", yes "3" drops of Dawn dish detergent. The Citric acid makes the ph of the water more acidic, and helps break down the tarnish and dirt on the cases. I fill up the tumbler (F/A big pin tumbler), use 10lb of pins and fill with brass. Put in 1/4tsp of citric acid and the 3 drops of Dawn, fill the tank with hot water and tumble for about 2hr. I then drain as much of the "LIQUID" as possible and not loose any pins or brass. I THEN put in 1/4cup of BAKING SODA and refill with hot water. The Baking Soda will bring the liquid back up to a near normal ph, thus reducing the tarnishing on the brass. I then drain the tumbler, clean it out, put the brass back in along with about 5-6 hand towels that I get at Wally World for like $6/pack. These will absorb about 95% of the liquid left in the cases. Then into the oven at 170-180 for an hour or so. Brass is then completely dry and goes into the big Dillon dry tumbler full of walnut media and NuFinish. Brass comes out shiny as new and does not tarnish for a long long time. Just my 2 cents worth, but that's how I've been doing it for a long time.

Thanks for the tips. Did another batch last night. I've been having really good luck with just a healthy squirt of Dawn and 2 hours. I do a quick tumble with fresh water then lay it on a towel foe 24-48 hours and the results are far better than before.

For really dirty brass I do as Rob does and run a prewash with no pins and dawn. For my fired brass, I use car wash, 1/2 teaspoon of lemishine and warm water. 

If I have brand new brass (Starline for instance) I run it with carwash and no pins so that there is some wax on the brass to reduce the dragging in the expander die.

Jack, you need to get in the habit of depriming your brass before wet tumbling. If not you're going to have trapped water that could make its way into your finished cartridges. Also why did you run with no pins?

I’ve found that depriming  is not necessary.  Nor are pins.  The inside may not get super clean but it is clean enough.  I also found that lemishine and dawn clean as well or better than the store bought solutions.  

Greetings,
A good example of why you should de-prime before wet tumbling. This is a Star base (acquired almost for free) that I need to weld up and have Dave re-machine. I have a Dillon 1000 I bought off Ebay for cheap that has the same problem. Obviously, if you don't de-prime; the spent primer becomes lapping compound and that's simple machine shop 101.