Open discussion about gun laws and proposed bans

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

I just realized that not only is Obama a good at selling B.S. to the population, he is also a very good gun salesman. I went out to buy an AR type rifle as a Christmas present to myself. Everywhere I looked was sold out of all AR and AK type guns. All of the stores were willing to give a quote but none could commit to a delivery date. So far I didn't run into any price gouging but I am sure that is only a few days away.

So, instead of a new AR, I ended up buying a new washer and dryer - Even though I can't shoot my eye out with those, they sure don't make for a good Christmas present

Chris

With evidents of the Department of Homeland Security purchasing 7000 select fire AR's last month is it possible that the rumors of the DHS is purchasing guns and ammo at such a rate that it's restricting sales to civilians by supply and demand? Rumors are that this is being done on purpose to dry up ammo and gun supplies because military and federal,state and local LE comes before civilian sales.

Anybody else hear anything or is this just an internet rumor?

If this is true what a great way for the Fed's to institute gun control without passing any new laws. If there is no ammo, powder, bullets, dies, primers, no nothing relating to shooting including firearms themselves then a firearm is just a worthless piece of metal.

With the scarcity of even 22 ammo and manufacturers saying it's going to be about 9 months before supplys catch up I could believe that this DHS rumor was really happening.


Virgil

Without going into much detail:FACT-We live in a free society and with the great features of such,there are some negative one's too.FACT-You can't legislate common sense,morals or responsibility. FACT-People do not learn from history.FACT-prohibition didn't reduce liquor consumption.FACT-Prohibition actually caused more liquor consumption and a black market/boot leg situation than berore.FACT-Gun laws or banning certain types of fire arms,for the most part are not all that effective.FACT-Cities with high crime/murder rates AND strict gun laws should indicate something to the masses-it doesn't.FACT-The masses tend to embrace laws on an emotional level and not on a factual/researched level. FACT-Drug laws aren't very effective either.What I am saying here is this-we must all fight and resist most gun and ammunition laws-because,mostly, they are ineffective and mainly criminals and the mentally deranged don't give a damn about laws. I have been a life member in the NRA since 1956 and they are one of the main organizations to fight corrupt,complacent politicians and self agenda groups that we presently have. And,no,they are not always perfect,and crime/murder will still continue,we will still have law breakers but I would rather tolerate that,because it is reality and the alternative is eroding our freedom,costing us more money,adding complications to our life as well as perhaps leaving us without the possibility of protecting our lives and our families lives.When existing gun laws are enforced-maybe my opinion will change.

Virgil-If you Google ammunition purchases by the Homeland Security Department as well as the Social Security Dept-you will be shocked. The DHS ordered in excess of 1.4 BILLION rounds of ammo-sniper type,.308,.223's . The SS dept ordered, in excess of 175,000 rounds of 125gr,sig,HP ammo. This is not practice ammo.This is not for the Army.Does ANYONE wonder what they need this much ammo for?? And they used the taxpayers money too.Maybe this is part of reducing GOV'T spending???? This ammo will be used basically against Americans.By the way the HAGUE convention banned this kind of ammo to be used on people.This amount of ammo is enough for 5 rounds for each man,women and child in the USA.Are you worried yet??? :-)

Sounds like a gearing up to defend the government against a domestic take over attempt or if they decided to try and disarm Americans like some other governments have tried.

Ernierod wrote:Virgil-If you Google ammunition purchases by the Homeland Security Department as well as the Social Security Dept-you will be shocked. The DHS ordered in excess of 1.4 BILLION rounds of ammo-sniper type,.308,.223's . The SS dept ordered, in excess of 175,000 rounds of 125gr,sig,HP ammo. This is not practice ammo.This is not for the Army.Does ANYONE wonder what they need this much ammo for?? And they used the taxpayers money too.Maybe this is part of reducing GOV'T spending???? This ammo will be used basically against Americans.By the way the GENEVA convention banned this kind of ammo to be used on people.This amount of ammo is enough for 5 rounds for each man,women and child in the USA.Are you worried yet??? :-)

I may be wrong but the Geneva Convention might be the wrong one, I can't recall the name of the other Treaty we signed but it might be the other one that bans this kind of ammo.
BUT my understanding is this FMJ requierment is for the armed forces of the nations that might engauge in a war and WEARING the uniform of that country and enlisted in such army. It's my understanding that ANY ammo may be used against an armed force that may be considered terrorist and not enlisted within an armed force of a nation. From what I hear from my sons friends that were in Iraq and Afganistan that many Special Force Units regularly use HP ammo when going on missions involving taking out terrorist.

Think about this, does the treaty also cover police departments? NO it doesn't and that's because those engaged in felony crimes are considered domestic terrorist. PD's use HP ammo all the time and not once did somebody sue them and win for them using this HP ammo.

I think the Department of Homeland Security has pretty much an unlimited budget. Rumors are that the DHS has bought more ammo in the last few months that all of our armed services used last year in Iraq and Afganistan. I'm not scared yet just trying to keep a watchful eye on what's going on here in our country.

Virgil

V-I guess it is the HAGUE convention I was thinking of-but I might be incorrect on this too.Doing research I believe most police forces use HP. The theory is it doesn't have too much penetrating power and it lessens the chance of injuring another person??

But didn't the hague treaty consider the use of Hp's or SP's cruel and unusually devistating and therefore banned their use?

Whatever it may be these are trying times we live in.

Virgil

All I know is that my local sheriff's department ammunition budget allows them to buy Law enforcement type HP rounds by the PALLET, as well as long range sniper rounds.
Most of it will never be discharged at another human being and will be used towards training and qualifying at cardboard targets.

jakuda wrote:All I know is that my local sheriff's department ammunition budget allows them to buy Law enforcement type HP rounds by the PALLET, as well as long range sniper rounds.
Most of it will never be discharged at another human being and will be used towards training and qualifying at cardboard targets.

This is true. Most departments now qualify with the ammo they will use on the streets and no longer use "target ammo" to qualify.


Virgil

"DHS is purchasing guns and ammo at such a rate that it's restricting sales to civilians by supply and demand? Rumors are that this is being done on purpose to dry up ammo and gun supplies".

The old"out spend your oponent(s) trick" eh? Put nothing past Obama. He wants this bad. Until now we haven't had to contend with a president that would spend like he does nor one willing to ignore law and the constitution to the extent he has.

We are just now seeing the warnings about obamacare's faults, oversights, and mistakes being true, another indication of how little he cares about the effects of his pet ideas.

In an interview he gave while senator he lamented all the shortcomings of our constitution and all the restrictions it places on the gov. He stated to Sen Trent Lott he believed "no one should have guns".

DO NOT BELIEVE any of this just a few "reasonable laws/restrictions". Universal background checks IS registration. Registration marks the beginning of the end. The technique of bombarding us constantly with lies is being used all out. Gun show loophole, assault weapon, a majority of gun owners/NRA members support, etc, etc.

This war has many fronts, attacking gun mfgr's thru investment & credit restrictions, UN treaties, Congress/Laws, regulations by the various alphabet agencies, out buying us, media barrage, a president willing to neglect other duties to run all over the couintry in campaign mode making war on the constitution and US citizen's and their rights.

May God help us!!

Ron

Gun registration might lead,one way or another,to reducing the amount of firearms that law abiding citizens have-either thru excessive paperwork,tax,licenseing etc. I see it as another form of disarming our law abiding citizens.A quote was sent to me..."The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the
subject races to possess arms. History shows that all
conquerors who have
allowed their subject races to carry arms
have prepared their own downfall by
so doing."
Adolph Hitler

Do we learn from history or repeat it???

I'm pretty new here so please bear with me as I give some perspective. The thread became too long for me to read it all, so excuse any repetition here.

A QUESTION: How many who have responded have spent significant time lobbying and passing legislation and have been involved in bloody legislative battles?

I have. I would like to give some perspective as to the claims the NRA is radical or they're too high on breeding paranoia.

I have been involved for 20 years in lobbying for a health profession which has had numerous attacks over the years from other health care providers. Historically our "opposition" was always unwilling to give us ANY leeway into their domain and what they did (I purposely am keeping this vague so it doesn't go off track.) Call it a turf war. It was not gun control but it is quite similar in what gun owners are facing. Someone wanted to define what we could do and when we could do it and how we could do it.

We faced a losing battle year after year after year after year...until...one day our opposition said "Well, OK, we can grant you this concession." That was 1972 in Rhode Island. That "opening" gave us what we needed. The first domino fell. Now all these years later we have what we want in nearly every state, we intruded and beat our opposition, simply because they didn't defend their line in the sand.

So I have witnessed first hand the political victories that come when your opposition says "Well, OK, you can have this much..." All they did was moved the line in the sand. As the aggressor I can tell you, once you've moved the line backwards, further victories become much easier.

So while there are those who may NOT be fans of the NRA, I would strongly suggest you pony up your dues and learn to live with what you like about them, because the first domino has already fallen, and that is NY State. Simply, the NRA is all we have and there is nothing more important right now than a lobbyist in Washington. The NRA has drawn a line in the sand as far as being unwilling to compromise on registration, background checks ..etc. BUT, WERE they to say "OK, we'll be OK with universal background checks," you can bet your days as a gun owner are numbered. Folks will call me paranoid, but I watched our profession absolutely take another one down by the knees simply because they got tired of the fight and made a concession.

We hang together or we surely hang apart, therefore I'm soon to be a life NRA member. I'm in NY State and part of this new hell we have to navigate. Background checks to buy a box of .22LR? My dealer says he's charging MUCH more once that kicks in because it's time invested. Other dealers are going to stop selling ammo. If you buy a brick of .22LR, your name gets reported to the State Police on a "high volume ammo purchaser black list." And no sales to family or friends without a NICS check (which won't happen since by law the dealer can't charge more than $10 for it and the dealers I know are refusing to do the transaction.) Sadly, there are those among us (shooters) who say "well, it's a reasonable law." It's not reasonable. You can ONLY have a 10 round clip if you owned it before the law was signed, and ONLY if you're at a sanctioned shooting range competing. So after April 14, 2013, anyone wanting to get into competitive shooting in NY State simply CANNOT buy a 10 round magazine. I've confirmed this with our elected sheriff who is a friend of mine. It's not good at all.

I'm happy to see such a spirited discussion, and opposing views are fine, but it's discouraging to see splinters in the troops so to say. Get behind the NRA and kiss their big white ass because that's about all you have right now between your avocation and a pastime, history and heritage going away.

The gun grabbers want more than your AR 15s. Kind of surprised that on a gun forum some are so willing to give up my right to keep and bear arms. Kind of surprised that some do not know the purpose of the 2nd amendment which is not for self defense, hunting and bullseye. Shame on you. I challenge you to read the founding fathers regarding this very important topic. Don't ask me to do your research for you. Shame on our educational system and I taught for 35 years. I did not read all of this topic but I will later this week. I read enough to be really disappointed. Pardon my typos. I am on an iPod.

I think most are missing the point. The 2nd amendment is not about 'need'. It does not matter if you need an AR vs a bolt gun or if you 'need' a custom Les Baer vs a stock Colt. It's about a god given right protected by the US Constitution. Universal background checks leads to universal gun registration (just keep the data from the background check) which leads to confiscation - start small, Rahm Emanual decides NO GUNS in Chicago and then it grows. Support the NRA, your state association (the NYSRPA is fighting NYSAFE), gun shows, local clubs, any person or organization that supports gun ownership. It is the only way to keep what we have.

daveG wrote: The 2nd amendment is not about 'need'. It does not matter if you need an AR......It's about a god given right....... protected by the US Constitution.

At the time of ratification the Bill of Rights were added at the insistence of Patrick Henry and others that these rights be written, "protected", as stated above. Those opposing did not necessarily oppose these "rights" but thought they were so apparent as to never be brought into question! A few men were wary of human nature. They understood history and what tyrants would do to gain control.
These people who see themselves as "progressives" today are the same kind of threat to liberty as King George and other monarchs and dictators have been. Those opposing the administration and their ideas are said to be "intransigent" etc. in their unwillingness to compromise. There can be no compromise regarding freedom & liberty. We are not deciding whch street to put the stop sign on.
The 2nd ammendmant is the keystone which holds the arch of liberty in place above the grasp of tyrants. Damage or remove it and the others cannot hold.

Ron

I was getting into this thread but stopped after reading this sentence.
"Let's not confuse the constitution with the second amendment."
Gregor?
I think that states requiring firearm proficiency before granting CCP's should rethink that and require a high school civics class instead.

Yiogo

WVBE Shooter wrote:I am purely a target shooter and have a hard time understanding the need for assault type rifles for recreational use. I am a member of the NRA and feel they have pushed the envelope to far with their support of assault rifles. I also feel strongly that bump stocks being sold which allow ar15's to become fully automatic have no use for the public. We need to get back to guns being used for protection, target shooting and hunting. The guns being used just to throw large volumes of ammo down range in order to boost someone's ego have no purpose in my opinion.

Right here is part of the problem. We MUST stand together as firearms owners to defeat the liberal agenda. AR's and hi cap magazines are mere buzzwords to the likes of Feinstein and freinds, the mission statement always has been, always will be, national gun registration! The end game with all this in case anyone doesn't follow history, is registration is THE gateway to taxation and possibly confiscation of lawfully owned firearms. You say you don't see the need to own an AR or a slide fire stock, until you have competed or fired these guns in a recreational setting, don't knock it till you've tried it. My intention is not to berate but rather to educate. Divide and conquer is the strategy being waged against us, a unified front on the part of ALL lawful firearms owners is the only way we can protect the 2A. Love them or hate them, the NRA is our most powerful tool in DC and we must rally behind them. I have issues with them like many others do, but they still get my money and support.