Barrel testers, BATFE regulations, state laws, and interpretations

Per previous conversations, if you have a barrel tester, that sounds cool. I thank you for the work that you do.

Please make note of all relevant state and federal laws before you post pictures on this public forum.

I don't want to see any of my friends in orange jumpsuits.

"You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."

Where the heck is that popcorn emoji when you need it???

John, can you repeat the annectdote from your retired BATFE acquaintance about this topic?

Rob,

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-5

1911 barrels are significantly shorter than 16in. Provisions likely exist for a barrel tester, but the rules also tend to change fairly frequently, however it just takes one irritated party to claim you have something that is not legal to cause some issues (I have heard stories of this happening in the the past from several people) and obviously some states are worse than others. A jury of your peers may not actually be your peers. 

This would be an instance of not wanting to throw stones if you live in a glass house type of a situation.

Hi Rob, I'm the on that has the batfe friend. He retired between 5 and 10 years ago but he was responsible for teaching agents how to properly classify firearms based on the current regulations in place, he had other duties but this was his primary role.

He's comfortable giving his interpretation based on his experience and the rules in place when he retired. He is much more reserved if the question relates to regulations implemented after he retired.


Ill go into things in a bit more detail this time as i glossed over some stuff in the name of brevity. As a starter, from the atf website:

Legal Definition of a Firearm
The term “firearm” means, in part: (A) Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosion; and, (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon. See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3).

Based on this definition, my friend says a barrel tester IS a firearm, that is clear. So yes, we have a gun. But that may or may not be an issue by itself.

If the barrel tester is made from a NEW reciever that was registered as a "reciever" when serialized, AND it is first fitted with a pistol barrel, it would be classified as a pistol regardless of action type. This would also (in principal) be legal and no cause for concern.

If the barrel tester was made from a new reciever that was registered as a "rifle" when serialized, but then fitted with a pistol, this would be classified as a short barreled rifle and subject to NFA regulations. NOT illegal just have to file the proper paperwork and get the tax stamp. If you don't file the paperwork, then yes, you may have an issue. The same situation would exist if you start with a used rifle and strip it to use thebreciever as the basis for your barrel tester.

Now, if you don't want/need to start with a commercial, serialized reciever to build your barrel tester, you are producing a PMF (privately made firearm). Now this may sound bad, but the ATF has issued guidance on PMFs. My friend wouldn't comment much on this as the rule was put in place after he retired, but my impression was that he thought it would be considered the same as an 80% lower (aka ghost gun). Per atf, PMFs may be made by individuals as long as they are not made with the intent to sell or distribute. As a side bar if your an ffl you must serialize the reciever within 7 days. There is no discussion if this would apply to class 1 or class 7 or both. Below is a link to the atf website on PMFs.

Yes, there are hypothetical assertion made in the discussion above, but remember, if a TC contender reciever is initially registered (when serialized) and sold as a pistol, it is ALWAYS a pistol. If it is regustered/sold as a rifle, it is ALWAYS a rifle. So say a rifle tc is sold second hand as a reciever with no barrel or stock, the buyer wouldn't know it was a rifle. If he fitted a pistol grip and 14" barrel, and was arrested and the Firearm traced, he could be found in possession of an unregistered SBR. in the practical world, this is pretty far fetched, but this IS a realistic potential scenario when dealing with the atf.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/privately-made-firearms

Stay safe out there...

Thank you all. I offer no interpretations of Federal nor state laws on this issue.

I advise my friends:

Be safe, be legal.

I'll also advise my friends:

This is a public forum. Please ensure that your configurations are legal based on the Federal and State laws where you currently reside prior to posting photos on a public forum.

I appreciate the open exchange of ideas on this forum. They help us all learn.

I also have a vested interest in keeping my friends out of orange jumpsuits. (My apologies if my previous objections to keeping my friends out of orange jumpsuits were out of the realm of propriety for this forum.)

Founder wrote:John, can you repeat the annectdote from your retired BATFE acquaintance about this topic?

That was not me, that was 10nsandxs, I believe.

We've had back-channel conversation about the thread that was shut down and deleted.

I thought that was valuable conversation. I am sorry that it's gone away. It had good information in it.

I'll admit that I introduced a minor subthread that ended up derailing the initial conversation, in service of our community.

In the course of that thread, I found it prudent to advise members of our community to protect themselves.

I thought that the original conversation was legitimate, and brought a lot of value to our community.

As conversations go, either on the firing line at Canton, Camp Perry, or her on the Bullseye Forum, they tend to wander.

We always want what's best for the sport. I thought it prudent to remind people that this is a public forum, and that BATFE might be watching this forum.

My objection to the previous discussion was that it was off topic and became argumentative.  It’s one thing to remind people to be fully legal, it’s another thing to argue ad nauseum.  If you want a post deleted let us Administrators know and we can do it if it’s in the best of the forum. Regardless, being argumentative is not in the best interests of the forum.

There was some very good information in that thread, but we will never know the results.  I deleted the thread at the request of the Original Poster after he deleted the first post making the data disappear.  He was upset and , IMO, justifiably.  The thread degenerated to argument.

John and Rob, unless I’m mistaken, neither are you are lawyers so handing out legal advice is not appropriate.  I’m not a lawyer either, but I know not to give legal advice, EVER. If you really think a post is documenting a questionable thing, GET US ADMINS involved.  We can discuss it with the originator and make a determination.  I know I’m on the forum multiple times a day.  

Enough said.

I think "giving legal advice" is a stretch. I'm simply providing info that i had from a knowledgeable individual. As I also have an ffl, I'm familiar with ATF rules. That said. Anyone can get the same info by reading the ATF website.

I suspect anyone that got into trouble and used " but my buddy said" as a defense would be laughed all the way to thier cell.

I don't see how my saying "people should consult Federal and State laws when posting photos on a public forum, because I want my friends to stay out of orange jumpsuits" constitutes as "legal advice."

It's certainly privacy and infosec advice, which I feel qualified to give, based on my day job. Happy to provide my bona fides in that realm; it just doesn't come up much in this domain (where I also have documented expertise).

I am a lawyer, but I am not giving anyone legal advice. Consult your state laws, but at least federally, I have seen zero statutes or regulations that would implicate barrel testers, especially NFA definitions (in my personal opinion).  

SBRs have to be shoulder-fired rifles, AOWs have to be designed for concealed use, DDs have to meet certain criteria, and testers cannot be held and used in one hand (handgun definition).  

All that leaves is an ARGUMENT that a tester is subject to the “weapon” qualification of the general “firearm” definition and the related PMF regs as a receiver. Even presuming it qualifies, it’s hard to see how possession or use of a tester violates any criminal (or tax) statutes or regs.  

Transfer might be more complicated under the PMF regs, but, frankly, I don’t understand how they would apply in the first instance.  99% of the testers I have seen are two hunks of metal with screw holes and clamping surfaces, and no clear means for mounting an “action” or fire control unit parts without a separate firing adapter (like a bolt action rifle receiver, which is how every example I have seen fires the rounds).  

In my view, there’s a much stronger argument that testers are just “barrel shrouds” of some kind, as (1) a separate receiver is needed to host a fire control group, and (2) the tester itself hosts no bolt or actuating parts.  A tester is as much a “firearm” in my reading as a ransom rest is.  It’s just a fixture that allows a separate non-1911 firearm to be attached to a 1911 barrel, and it holds that whole kludge still on a bench.

So, I understand the conservative attitudes, but I don’t see a realistic plausible threat of even the most progressive federal LE asserting any penalties against tester owners under current statutes or regs.

I would suggest that "Test Stands" can be registered as "Any Other Weapon" for $5.00. I remember the CMP sold (15yrs ago +-) 03A3 Test Stands with a 5"(??) 45 ACP Barrel on it. One of my friends bought one to test his ammunition. He registered it in that manner. I am NOT sure if that rule still exists BUT $5.00 is CHEAP Insurance !!!- Alan Aronstein