Keeping a gun parallel with your intended line of sight

First topic message reminder :

I'm posting this as a new topic, so it doesn't get lost.  CR10X left a response to my previous post, that went totally over my head.  I read the words, but didn't understand what he meant.

Post was:  https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t12728-pistol-team-workbook-how-to-aim-at-blank-paper-using-a-red-dot-sight

The thing CR10X wrote that this new thread is about was:

• ".........So, remove anything that temps you to look, aim, see, distract you from using whatever you have (front and rear sight alignment or dot in the tube) to work on and INSURE (sic) you are constantly keeping the gun PARALLEL with your intended line of sight.  Wobble all you want / have to but work on keeping the gun aligned.  And that means working with a blank target..........."
  

I puzzled over it, then asked Dave Salyer about it, and Dave gave me a simpler explanation, which now I think I finally understand.  The key, for me, was "This is Cecil’s way of saying, keep the sights aligned between your eye and your aiming area.  Let's say your eye sways a little with your body. You can stay aligned if you don’t bend your wrist or get distracted.  Bad shots come when the angle of the gun changes, not with normal wobble. Your shots will cluster in the middle of your hold area if you just let the shot break subconsciously."


What I'm thinking now is I must be pretty ignorant about things, and/or locked into my way of doing things, that the real meaning of CR's words didn't hit me until I read it again just before doing some dry-firing.  If the gun is pointed at the bullseye, and wobbles to the right or left, say, 1/4", the hole in the target will be the same 1/4" away from dead center.  But if the gun moves in a way that it's no longer facing the target, maybe it's pointing up, down, right, or left, the hole will be way off from the center.  This leads to the thought of how to keep the gun perfectly parallel to a line between me and the target.


That got me to wondering how to prevent it.  The first place that might affect it is my shoulder, but I think that's unlikely.  The second place is my elbow, but if I keep my elbow locked, that's not going to be much of an issue.  What's left, is my wrist.  If my wrist flexes in any direction, the gun won't be pointing at the target.  The round will go off in a line away from the target.  Not good.

The rest of what I write might be way off base - I'm just thinking out loud.  I know that my wrist is not "locked", and I never figured out a way to lock it.  With this in mind, if my wrist is straight ahead, it's free to "flop" around, and it's impossible for me to "lock it in place".  But if I bend my right wrist to the right, and tense my muscles, there is a place where it starts to feel like it's locked to my arm.

For an hour or so I tried dry firing like this.  Interesting observations, the gun for the first time ever felt like it was rigid.  If so, that is good.  Next, the gun needed to be in my grip in a way that I could see the sights properly.   That was do-able.  Finally, I found it wasn't possible to line up the gun with my eye, but it was effortless to line up my eye with the gun.

Interestingly enough, while it was only dry fire, my wobble was greatly reduced, and when I "fired" the dot didn't move - I heard the 'CLICK' but nothing changed.  Nice.



Maybe I finally caught on to something the rest of you just do naturally.  For me, it's a whole different way of seeing things.  
There is no need for me to worry about the wobble, nor do I need to keep the dot right over the X.  
The far more important thing is to keep the gun parallel with the intended line of sight (which among other things means a locked wrist).      
 .......I think this is what CR10X was trying to teach me.  
From now on, my dry firing will be at a blank wall, and keeping my wrist locked.

........and I need to remember that 
"Every shot that hits somewhere in. you're hold area is a good shot for you.  
Every shot that is outside your wobble is due to an angular error you committed."

Sometimes I overthink things, but may not see/recognize what's right in front of my eyes.     

Here you go...



I stand just slightly more bladed than Brian is here, but not much. and with my thumb hooked in my right pocket rather than on my belt buckle. (I'm left handed) Legs straight, torso centered over my feet, arm fully extended, opposite shoulder and arm completely relaxed with it's weight supported by my thumb in my pocket.

Rock solid.

You appear to pretty much face the target.

DA/SA wrote:Can't help you with that, as I've never had anything I've ever shot push me back or move me......

Until today, when I decided to move the top of my body forwards a little, I've been trying to emulate Doug Koenig in his video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqFn9AU7les

If you study the first few minutes of the video, even Doug is moved backward slightly when he fires - and this is from a 22.

I think my problem isn't the gun moving me back, it's me not being steady enough to just stand reasonably still.  
Leaning forward helped.  Maybe there is a better way.

(......or maybe it's just me; heck, if I hold my hand out in front of me while sitting, I can't even hold that perfectly still.......)

mikemyers wrote:(......or maybe it's just me; heck, if I hold my hand out in front of me while sitting, I can't even hold that perfectly still.......)

I soon learned that the five glasses of iced tea at breakfast just before a match wasn't a good idea...

mikemyers wrote:If you study the first few minutes of the video, even Doug is moved backward slightly when he fires - and this is from a 22.

Yes, normal "movement" but it doesn't throw him off balance or cause him to wobble around. It's just normal recoil absorption.

DA/SA wrote:Here you go...



I stand just slightly more bladed than Brian is here, but not much. and with my thumb hooked in my right pocket rather than on my belt buckle. (I'm left handed) Legs straight, torso centered over my feet, arm fully extended, opposite shoulder and arm completely relaxed with it's weight supported by my thumb in my pocket.

Rock solid.

You appear to pretty much face the target.

IMO, a key element is overlooked when many look at this picture in an attempt to garner position wisdom from the shooter. Note the target displayed is #450. The shooter is actually on target #455. Five targets to the right of the pictured target. Point being, his position is such that his shoulders and feet are almost in line, or possibly in a line with his arm and gun, which is also in a line to the target. His target 455 not 450.  The technique of getting behind the gun works very well for many today.  

I have recently, (month or so now) been working this behind the gun technique, which initially was not comfortable due to the degree which I had to turn my head  to NOT look through the corner of my glasses. I have gotten used to it now, and it is paying a dividend for me. I have also incorporated the raising of the shoulder to my chin, to get that weld spot. Another very uncomfortable thing, but after a little time, it is now what I do. It is working for me. The chin weld is not shown in the picture.

Here is an example as to why I think, getting behind the gun is working, and why it makes recovery so much better, and actually takes less strain or energy.

Stand slightly more than arms length away from a wall. Just enough that you have to lean forward to place both of your clinched fist against the wall. Then try to remove one fist. What happens? You immediately torque or twist. If you incrementally turn your feet, while getting your feet more in line with the arm/fist not being removed, the twisting reduces, but is still present At a point, approximately when the hind foot now gets almost directly behind the front foot, and the body is turned, so that the feet, shoulders and arm are in a line to the wall, you can stay there, without loosing balance or twisting, and use much less energy doing it. In other words you are pushing against the wall in a straight line and it is stable. Now imagine the wall slowly starts moving toward you. You will move back in a straight line. Now imagine the wall being the recoil. Push straight back against the body. No twisting or torqueing of the body. We know that the gun (semi auto) will torque during recoil, but that is a different matter at this point. Try getting behind the gun, see if it works for you. Do it for a few weeks, before you give up.

Allgoodhits wrote:
............I have also incorporated the raising of the shoulder to my chin, to get that weld spot. Another very uncomfortable thing, but after a little time, it is now what I do. It is working for me. The chin weld is not shown in the picture.............Now imagine the wall being the recoil. Push straight back against the body. No twisting or torqueing of the body. ...............

I'm very surprised - never heard of this.  Strangely, it's not uncomfortable for me, at least here in my room    Something to try for a while.

Just to make sure I'm not even more confusabobbled than normal....    are you saying your right shoulder and chin are pressing into each other?
Did you learn this from Brian??

Today isn't April first, so you must be serious...........

.........on the other hand, thanks, but I think I need to do it the approved way, before I try anything new and revolutionary.....

For comparison purposes only.

That's what I'm talking about when I referred to holding the gun out there with authority rather than just sticking it out there...(in the other thread)

OK, more authority needed.
Why not........

Yeh Mike, don’t forget the gangsta cant...

CR, I found your response after Jim's response, but my browser window was logged out.  I opened a new window to respond to it, but now it's missing - or at least my computer can't find it.

Anyway, in response to your missing post, I have sent one message and am sending two more about training.  Hopefully something works out.  

In the meantime, I'm puzzled about what happened to what you wrote - not sure if it's my computer, or the server, or ??? but it's as if nothing was posted under Jim's response.

According to this browser window, Jim posted at "today at 12:25pm", but in my logged out window, it says Jim posted it "today at 4:25pm", and according to that window, your response that is missing was posted "today at 7:58pm"....   but the time now is only 5pm.  Maybe the time changes depending if I'm logged in or logged out?   Maybe your missing post will re-appear later?   Strange.

Anyway, thank you.  (I can re-post what my logged out browser window says you wrote, if the system somehow deleted it.....)

When a post is deleted by the author, have the courtesy to leave it deleted.

CR10X wrote:When a post is deleted by the author, have the courtesy to leave it deleted.  

Correct.

mikemyers wrote:

Allgoodhits wrote:
............I have also incorporated the raising of the shoulder to my chin, to get that weld spot. Another very uncomfortable thing, but after a little time, it is now what I do. It is working for me. The chin weld is not shown in the picture.............Now imagine the wall being the recoil. Push straight back against the body. No twisting or torqueing of the body. ...............

I'm very surprised - never heard of this.  Strangely, it's not uncomfortable for me, at least here in my room    Something to try for a while.

Just to make sure I'm not even more confusabobbled than normal....    are you saying your right shoulder and chin are pressing into each other?
Did you learn this from Brian??

Today isn't April first, so you must be serious...........

Not Brian, Jon Shue and others.

I saw where Chapman posted a picture of AMU and AccuracyX Mike Gasser. That pic should give you an idea. Improvise to make it work best for you. It takes some getting used to but, it is solid, repeatable and effective.

Sorry about my post - I had no idea posts could be deleted, without there being a message like "deleted by author" or something.   Oops............

You guys are tremendously helpful - I wouldn't want to do anything, or say anything, or ask anything, or whatever that would upset anyone.  Not sure what else to say about it.  I was sure my computer was confusabobbled, most likely my browser.



Anyway, I've learned a lot from this thread (once again), and have sent a message to Universal Shooting Academy
(http://universalshootingacademy.com/contact-universal-shooting-academy/contact/) )
to ask if anyone there is teaching Precision Shooting, and if so, if I could pay for a day's help.  Will find out Monday I guess.

Maybe you guys don't realize it, but I usually read things here, then walk to my dry-fire area, and try them out.  The recent suggestions just by themselves have eliminated most of my "body wobble".  Two legs, one foot pointing front, one to my left, spread apart more than before, with weight distribution equalized so they're both stable, and then dry-firing with gun aggressively pushed out in front of me.  Over and over, for an hour, with one minute breaks between each 40-second firing "session".  The difference is obvious!!!

.....and to Jim, I have canted for as long as I can remember.  I used to fight it - not any more.      :-)

Allgoodhits wrote:.............I saw where Chapman posted a picture of AMU and AccuracyX Mike Gasser. That pic should give you an idea. Improvise to make it work best for you. It takes some getting used to but, it is solid, repeatable and effective.

I put the Caspian 45 slide back on the gun, with the new two-piece full length guide rod, modified as Dave Salyer does it.  Gun was assembled and t was trying to figure out what sight to put on it.  I tried the Matchdot II sight with heavy duty mounts that I bought here in the forum, but the combination felt way too heavy.  The Matchdot came off, and I mounted a Venom Vortex instead - it's so light it feels like it could float away.  The combination feels good.  I never realized how nice the Venom Vortex is - it has a nice dot, is low, light, easy to mount, and has a lifetime warranty.

I did try dry-firing gripping the gun like Mike Gasser, and it feels pretty "solid" to me.  I guess my thumb belongs up on the safety - assuming I can shoot the Nelson that way too.  With my hand positioned like that, I've got to make sure my palm is properly pressing on the grip safety.

For dry-fire I added the lead-filled magazine that Dave Salyer made for me.  When I remove that magazine, the fun feels like it's made from plastic.   It is SO much better than back when I used to wear wrist weights for dry fire.

Take a class from someone that actually shoots precision pistol competitively! Brian, Jon Shue, and lots of others have classes all over. An action pistol / personal defense/ tacti-cool school!?? Really! You are making it hard to try and continue to help you.

I did try to search for Brian's classes, but Google didn't find anything.  I will send a message to Brian here in the forum.   There may be "classes all over", but while I'm usually pretty good at searching Google, I didn't find any, and even if I did, it would need to be someone qualified.  I sent a message to someone at my club who used to teach me years ago, but who is too busy nowadays with the club to even have time to shoot.  She may not be another Brian or Jon, but I don't think I know enough yet to really take advantage of Brian or Jon's ability.  Someone here sent me his copy of Brian's "class notes".  That was fascinating, and helpful.  Very much appreciated.

I sort of disagree with one thing you wrote, CR, as in " You are making it hard to try and continue to help you."  My thoughts are from the receiving end, not the giving end, and all I need to do is look at my old targets and notes to realize how much help I've gotten already.  From your end, I understand.  It's as if I was asking people to tell me how to tie my shoe laces so they wouldn't come undone.  Impossible (although in this case, YouTube did come up with an answer, and a video, and it worked).  Past a certain point, written words are not helpful.

Please also remember, I was born in 1943, and I'm certainly not strong and muscular, nor is my vision as good as it once was.  All the help in the world is not going to take me as far as what younger and better better bullseye shooters are doing.  I'm not discouraged by that, as over the past five years, I see myself improving.  I correspond with someone almost every day who used to be a high master, but older age, meaning physical conditions, prevent him from doing that now.   As for me, my goals are open ended, but if I get to where I can successfully place ten rounds "in the black", that's my goal now, and I'm closer to it than I was before.

I have been out of these instuctional threads, because you have been getting great advice from a number of folks who are far better than I, both as shooters and shooting instructors, and who have been very patient.

With all due respect, as one who has taught over 40 years, I would add the following advice.  You need to take the instructions and advice you receive, and try actually to work with it.  I think you think you do, but you get advice, go off and try it, and in an hour or two you are back here or elsewhere with more questions and off on another tangent.  Whether stance, grip or other, depending on time at task, in most cases you need to try it for a significant time to develop muscle memory, or unconscious actions that facilitate these techniques, and then determine whether or not they work for you.

Good luck in your efforts.

Edit to add: At your level, don't need "the best of the best" to improve - you already have received years of their advice.  A Bullseye shooter can help.  My mentor was a "Lifetime Expert".  I just had to train and learn for myself how to "align the sights and move the trigger without disturbing that alignment".  That is all there us to it.

mikemyers wrote:Please also remember, I was born in 1943, and I'm certainly not strong and muscular, nor is my vision as good as it once was.  All the help in the world is not going to take me as far as what younger and better better bullseye shooters are doing. 

Get your mind right!

Men nearing 100 just jumped out of a C-47 onto Normandy to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of their jump during the D-Day invasion.

If you sit around and feel old, you will be!!!

Brian Zins clinics are posted on his Facebook page regularly

Brian conducts his clinics at Point Blamk Range in Matthews NC from time to time. Usually in January to March time frame.

http://www.pointblankrange.com/

There is also a clinic posted for somewhere in Michigan but it may be full already. He will travel but you’d need 10 or so to keep the cost per person down.

Not at point blank anymore

Mr. Myers,

Brian is doing a class at Cardinal Range, OH later this month. I am pretty sure he has one in the works for either October 23 or 25th at NRA HQ in Fairfax, VA.  I have been talking to Jim Henderson about the possibility of a class in the Fairfax/Manassas, VA area for this fall/winter/early spring. Nothing else on that at present.

Food for thought. Stop comparing your "results" with results of others. Being the best that "you" can be, given your age, physical attributes and/or equipment or ammo variables and time to dedicate to training is what you should be seeking. I believe, you will find that approach much more rewarding and much less discouraging. IOW, simply, are you improving? Improving, may or may not be relative to score. Improving, being developing a shot process which enables you to deliver the most consistent shots, repeatable, nearest to "your" aiming area on demand.

When someone suggests trying something which works for them, it may or may not work for you. Some folks have a tendency to dispute or argue on technique or style vs another. Suffice it to say, some things work for some, and not for others. What works for all of us, is developing the shot process which works for us, then following it to refine it to extract the best repeatable shots that "we" can. Sometimes a minor, or even a major change can extract better results, or more consistent desirable results. Trying something which works for a person (HM) is worthy of consideration, because it obviously works. Trying for "a while", before selecting it, or discarding it. An effective shot process may take weeks, months, years, decades to finally get that lightbulb to shine bright, every time.

Final thought. I know Doug Koenig quite well. I have been to his "personal" range at Topton and shot with him. Just he and I. He is amazing without any doubt. Probably the best all around rifle, pistol, shotgun shooter and archer on the planet. However, BE/PP is slightly different animal. There is no doubt in my mind that if Doug decided to take a serious run a BE/PP, he would be among the very best on the planet in short order, and he in not many years would be the National Champion. BUT, I would also venture to say, that he would change up some of his position and other aspects of shooting to reach that pinnacle. In other words, he would develop a specific shot process for BE/PP which would have some slightly different elements, compared to that which he does now. Therefore, when talking among and with folks who are High Master in BE/PP, I would seriously listen to them when it comes to BE/PP. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience here, and a willingness to help by many. Let them.

Possibly break your goal down to a specific behavioral or performance objectives, which when done and reached will get you to your goal.  Simple example. My "goal" is to shoot 10 shots in the black of a 25 yd target at 25 yds. This is fine, but it doesn't tell you how to reach it. Conversely, my "objective" is to develop and follow a shot process which has proven by me, when executed to "my" ability will enable me to place shots on demand into an aiming area that is 5.5" or less at 25 yds. By making sure I follow my own process in acquiring my stance, my grip, my trigger finger placement, my breathing, my aiming area and my trigger press, my followed objectives will take me to my goal.

My .02 

Out.