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valbern67
orpheoet
davidbullseye
Danehogle
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chiz1180
Doug Hall
James Hensler
Ed Hall
SteveT
john bickar
dronning
Dcforman
PhotoEscape
Schaumannk
19 posters
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Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Schaumannk 1/22/2020, 6:53 pm
Dear Canton McKinley, I understand why you had to schedule your Regional for the weekend preceding the CMP matches at Perry. Your wonderful match is the top regional in the National for a reason.
I have been talking to some of the supported shooters and other shooting friends, and have a couple of concerns.
At least one team has told its shooters that they will fund entry fees for the National matches, and one regional as they have in the past. If the Atterbury range is completed in time, that means, most of those supported shooters and teams will not be shooting Canton due to the conflict.
We know that for the last few years that Canton has filled the line, leaving quite a few people in a difficult position. We can commit to Canton early, and potentially lose our entry fees if the national matches take place at Atterbury. Or we can wait to see if the venue at Atterbury is up and running, and potentially lose our chance to shoot Canton if the line fills while we wait on the NRA who is not taking entries for Nationals until late June.
With large numbers of teams and individual shooters coming from outside the state of Ohio, we do not have the ability to just *pop on down* if a space opens up on the line so we can shoot. There are travel issues and lodging issues, and vacation scheduling issues for those that still work.
In addition, some people have voiced concerns that the CMP’s high match fees in the past will continue into 2020 and end up pricing a lot of people out of their large slate of matches scheduled for Camp Perry this year.
We believe that the NRA has failed to execute a planned organized transition to a new venue, but we have even less faith in the ability of the CMP to run matches at Camp Perry as professionally and as cost effectively as the NRA matches have been run in the past.
In general, my loyalty is to the grass roots match directors of the NRA who have allowed me to have more fun over the last 12 years, and meet more wonderful friends than I ever thought possible.
While the National organization has abandoned these match directors, range officers and the shooters, the CMP has yet to earn even moderate trust, that they can fill the gap.
Will there be any provision in the way that Canton takes entries this year to allow supported shooters, and those that travel long distances to hedge our bets? Sincerely, Kate Schaumann
I have been talking to some of the supported shooters and other shooting friends, and have a couple of concerns.
At least one team has told its shooters that they will fund entry fees for the National matches, and one regional as they have in the past. If the Atterbury range is completed in time, that means, most of those supported shooters and teams will not be shooting Canton due to the conflict.
We know that for the last few years that Canton has filled the line, leaving quite a few people in a difficult position. We can commit to Canton early, and potentially lose our entry fees if the national matches take place at Atterbury. Or we can wait to see if the venue at Atterbury is up and running, and potentially lose our chance to shoot Canton if the line fills while we wait on the NRA who is not taking entries for Nationals until late June.
With large numbers of teams and individual shooters coming from outside the state of Ohio, we do not have the ability to just *pop on down* if a space opens up on the line so we can shoot. There are travel issues and lodging issues, and vacation scheduling issues for those that still work.
In addition, some people have voiced concerns that the CMP’s high match fees in the past will continue into 2020 and end up pricing a lot of people out of their large slate of matches scheduled for Camp Perry this year.
We believe that the NRA has failed to execute a planned organized transition to a new venue, but we have even less faith in the ability of the CMP to run matches at Camp Perry as professionally and as cost effectively as the NRA matches have been run in the past.
In general, my loyalty is to the grass roots match directors of the NRA who have allowed me to have more fun over the last 12 years, and meet more wonderful friends than I ever thought possible.
While the National organization has abandoned these match directors, range officers and the shooters, the CMP has yet to earn even moderate trust, that they can fill the gap.
Will there be any provision in the way that Canton takes entries this year to allow supported shooters, and those that travel long distances to hedge our bets? Sincerely, Kate Schaumann
Schaumannk- Posts : 613
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Cheyenne, WY
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Schaumannk 1/22/2020, 8:09 pm
In retrospect, I guess I should have asked the same question of Cardinal, since their dates conflict as well. Is Cardinal a Regional match?
Schaumannk- Posts : 613
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Cheyenne, WY
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by PhotoEscape 1/22/2020, 8:23 pm
Kate,
Do you mind sharing dates please? I'm trying to compile everything for myself, and Canton-McKinley's website has slightly outdated schedule posted (unless I'm on the wrong website - http://www.cantonmckinleyriflepistol.org/match_schedule/default.html )
From my end - 2020 Bristol, IN Regional - June 27-28, with practice on June 26th.
Thank you,
AP
Do you mind sharing dates please? I'm trying to compile everything for myself, and Canton-McKinley's website has slightly outdated schedule posted (unless I'm on the wrong website - http://www.cantonmckinleyriflepistol.org/match_schedule/default.html )
From my end - 2020 Bristol, IN Regional - June 27-28, with practice on June 26th.
Thank you,
AP
Last edited by PhotoEscape on 1/22/2020, 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : url correction)
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Schaumannk 1/22/2020, 8:31 pm
Sure. The National matches tentatively scheduled for 1-5 July at Atterbury Indiana. From the Canton McKinley web site, and the NRA schedule of events, the Canton Regional is 3-5 July.
From the Cardinal Center web site, their 3600 which includes a Service Pistol 900 is scheduled for 2-3 July, although the Cardinal match is not on the NRA schedule of events yet( and this does not make much sense because Cardinal conflicts with Canton as well with these dates)
Other posters have indicated that the Cardinal 3600 will be June 30th- July 1st which still puts them in conflict with the tentative dates of the NRA National matches at Atterbury IN.
From the Cardinal Center web site, their 3600 which includes a Service Pistol 900 is scheduled for 2-3 July, although the Cardinal match is not on the NRA schedule of events yet( and this does not make much sense because Cardinal conflicts with Canton as well with these dates)
Other posters have indicated that the Cardinal 3600 will be June 30th- July 1st which still puts them in conflict with the tentative dates of the NRA National matches at Atterbury IN.
Last edited by Schaumannk on 1/22/2020, 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add information)
Schaumannk- Posts : 613
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Cheyenne, WY
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Dcforman 1/22/2020, 8:42 pm
Not sure this will work...
https://m.facebook.com/groups/302387323203135?view=permalink&id=2351895508252296
Dave
https://m.facebook.com/groups/302387323203135?view=permalink&id=2351895508252296
Dave
Dcforman- Posts : 921
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Age : 43
Location : Ohio
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by PhotoEscape 1/22/2020, 8:56 pm
Thank you Kate & Dave!
To summarize:
Bristol IN - 6/26-6/28
Cardinal / Marengo OH 6/30 - 7/1
Canton OH 7/3 - 7/5
Perry OH 7/7 - 7/13
Attenbury, IN - ?
Conflict is definitely in works.
AP
To summarize:
Bristol IN - 6/26-6/28
Cardinal / Marengo OH 6/30 - 7/1
Canton OH 7/3 - 7/5
Perry OH 7/7 - 7/13
Attenbury, IN - ?
Conflict is definitely in works.
AP
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by dronning 1/23/2020, 12:00 am
PhotoEscape wrote:Thank you Kate & Dave!
To summarize:
Bristol IN - 6/26-6/28
Cardinal / Marengo OH 6/30 - 7/1
Canton OH 7/3 - 7/5
Perry OH 7/7 - 7/13
Attenbury, IN - ?
Conflict is definitely in works.
AP
From NRA website:
July 1-5, 2020Camp Atterbury, Edinburgh, Indiana
dronning- Posts : 2581
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Age : 70
Location : Lakeville, MN
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by john bickar 1/23/2020, 12:19 am
Last summer, when this silliness started from the NRA, Canton McKinley and Cardinal put their money where their mouths were and said, "We have ranges, we'll hold the matches, we have the clientele, we'll feed y'all and run good matches for you next year."
And they made good on that. Those matches are scheduled for July, 2020, on ranges that are already built, with support staff and infrastructure to run them.
Ground has not yet been broken at Camp Atterbury.
I'm not a "supported shooter", and it's been a long time since I've been one. I am a shooter who travels long distances to shoot bullseye on his own dime.
I can't guarantee that I can swing the vacation time this year, but this customer's dollars are at Canton and Cardinal this summer if so.
Maybe they can grow some grass at Cardinal by this summer
And they made good on that. Those matches are scheduled for July, 2020, on ranges that are already built, with support staff and infrastructure to run them.
Ground has not yet been broken at Camp Atterbury.
I'm not a "supported shooter", and it's been a long time since I've been one. I am a shooter who travels long distances to shoot bullseye on his own dime.
I can't guarantee that I can swing the vacation time this year, but this customer's dollars are at Canton and Cardinal this summer if so.
Maybe they can grow some grass at Cardinal by this summer
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Schaumannk 1/23/2020, 4:49 am
I quite agree. I just fear with the uncertainty, that the default position for a lot of shooters is going to be stay home this year, and wait for the mess to be sorted out.john bickar wrote:Last summer, when this silliness started from the NRA, Canton McKinley and Cardinal put their money where their mouths were and said, "We have ranges, we'll hold the matches, we have the clientele, we'll feed y'all and run good matches for you next year."
And they made good on that. Those matches are scheduled for July, 2020, on ranges that are already built, with support staff and infrastructure to run them.
Ground has not yet been broken at Camp Atterbury.
I'm not a "supported shooter", and it's been a long time since I've been one. I am a shooter who travels long distances to shoot bullseye on his own dime.
I can't guarantee that I can swing the vacation time this year, but this customer's dollars are at Canton and Cardinal this summer if so.
Maybe they can grow some grass at Cardinal by this summer
I will be happy to pay my entry fees in full this spring at Canton and Cardinal with the promise that if there is a match at Atterbury, that I can get a refund or a deferral to 2021. However, I know a lot of people who are not in a financial position to pay double entry fees and then pick a match.
I know quite a few others who are angry at everyone. Maybe things will be clearer in April or May. I certainly hope so.
Schaumannk- Posts : 613
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Location : Cheyenne, WY
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by SteveT 1/23/2020, 7:53 am
+1Schaumannk wrote:I know quite a few others who are angry at everyone. Maybe things will be clearer in April or May. I certainly hope so.
I think it's bad practice to schedule a match in conflict with the national championships. I am a bit surprised the NRA approved it. Angry may be stronger emotion than I feel right now. Frustrated, confused and disappointed are probably closer to my feelings.
Thank you Kate for opening up the discussion.
SteveT- Posts : 1106
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Location : Illinois -
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Ed Hall 1/23/2020, 9:06 am
NRA has never taken on the role of deconflicting match schedules, at least as long as I've been shooting. They base sanctioning on club standing and proper processing, to include State coordination, if needed. Conflict avoidance has been the responsibility of the sponsors as long as I've been shooting.SteveT wrote:. . .
I think it's bad practice to schedule a match in conflict with the national championships. I am a bit surprised the NRA approved it.
. . .
I actually don't see a problem with this, but the sponsors should realize that NRA isn't basing sanctioning on open dates and plan accordingly.
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by James Hensler 1/23/2020, 2:30 pm
I believe over the years Canton got full was because people like me treated Canton like a tune up for the Nationals! Now it seems they think they are bigger than the NRA and decided to basically challenge the NRA! Kinda like what a teenager does to challenge their parents! As far as I am concerned I have shot my last Canton! I think in 2-3 years turnout will be negligible!
I am shooting
Cardinal
NRA Nationals
Perry
For some reason people think that it takes months to build a pistol range??? Look at Perry their ranges are in a field! Could be built in 30 days or less
I am shooting
Cardinal
NRA Nationals
Perry
For some reason people think that it takes months to build a pistol range??? Look at Perry their ranges are in a field! Could be built in 30 days or less
James Hensler- Posts : 1245
Join date : 2018-01-15
Age : 55
Location : Southwest Florida
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Doug Hall 1/23/2020, 3:16 pm
Cardinal and Canton did not schedule on top of the NRA dates, the NRA scheduled on top of the Canton long standing date and Cardinal’s dates which were already scheduled before the NRA announcement, the same dates C+C both used in the prior year. I have made the decision I personally will not shoot a 2700 without covered firing positions any more. As a Vendor I can’t loose money at more than one venue a year so I need to pick just one.
Doug Hall- Posts : 42
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Central, Ohio
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by chiz1180 1/23/2020, 5:11 pm
At the competitor meeting at Perry we where told the their would be covered firing points, I realize you live in Florida and don't have to deal with frozen and wet ground, but that leaves a possibly small window to actually build covered firing points. My local club just did a renovation of just a 12 point range (essentially staring over with leveling of the range and berm maintenance) and due to wet weather it took 5 months to get it finished. Clearly their is a difference in scale but weather factors are something that can not be controlled. Also any progress is all cloak and dagger, Ted is the only one who is communicating any details and unfortunately the details he has provided are in my eyes lacking enough information to commit my limited vacation time to shoot that match, why gamble on a range that "should be ready" when three ranges already exist?James Hensler wrote:I believe over the years Canton got full was because people like me treated Canton like a tune up for the Nationals! Now it seems they think they are bigger than the NRA and decided to basically challenge the NRA! Kinda like what a teenager does to challenge their parents! As far as I am concerned I have shot my last Canton! I think in 2-3 years turnout will be negligible!
I am shooting
Cardinal
NRA Nationals
Perry
For some reason people think that it takes months to build a pistol range??? Look at Perry their ranges are in a field! Could be built in 30 days or less
A few other things to consider Cardinal, Canton and Camp Perry are all two hours from each other. Far more convenient of a drive. As far as cost is concerned, any of the matches in question are not cheap, but comparing to small private ranges, its not that bad. A few of the local ranges near me cost about $30/hr, figure a 2700 takes 3-4hrs, the match cost isn't that out of the scope of reality.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
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Location : Ohio
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by James Hensler 1/23/2020, 6:03 pm
I understand all of that! I am actually from Columbus Ohio! I moved down here in 07.
I was part of the downpour relay Saturday and Sunday at Canton and would have loved covered during points!
So Cardinal is the only one of the 3 that has that
I was part of the downpour relay Saturday and Sunday at Canton and would have loved covered during points!
So Cardinal is the only one of the 3 that has that
James Hensler- Posts : 1245
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Location : Southwest Florida
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by chiz1180 1/23/2020, 8:13 pm
So drive about twice as far to possibly shoot at an uncovered south facing range? Those logistics suck.
chiz1180- Posts : 1487
Join date : 2019-05-29
Location : Ohio
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by TomH_pa 1/23/2020, 9:06 pm
Cardinal to Canton to Perry 242 miles shoot 3 times
Cardinal to Atterbury 238 miles shoot twice
Cardinal to Atterbury 238 miles shoot twice
TomH_pa- Posts : 160
Join date : 2017-03-17
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by James Hensler 1/23/2020, 9:07 pm
I say in time if Canton and the NRA Nationals keep competing on the same days Canton will lose out!
2 nationals means more to me than 1 nothing 1 regional and 1 new national
2 nationals means more to me than 1 nothing 1 regional and 1 new national
James Hensler- Posts : 1245
Join date : 2018-01-15
Age : 55
Location : Southwest Florida
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by PhotoEscape 1/23/2020, 9:54 pm
From geographical and driving time stand point ideal route is Bristol, IN -> Camp Perry, OH -> Canton OH -> Marengo, OH -> Camp Atterbury, IN
https://www.bing.com/maps?q=marengo+OH&form=EDNTHB&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=d4b3aec4c8204083a03f7b6a923a5c2d&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=marengo+oh&sc=8-10&qs=n&sk=&cvid=d4b3aec4c8204083a03f7b6a923a5c2d
AP
https://www.bing.com/maps?q=marengo+OH&form=EDNTHB&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&plvar=0&refig=d4b3aec4c8204083a03f7b6a923a5c2d&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=marengo+oh&sc=8-10&qs=n&sk=&cvid=d4b3aec4c8204083a03f7b6a923a5c2d
AP
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Danehogle 1/24/2020, 7:34 am
Ya I would like to clear the air so to speak.
Canton and Cardinal did NOT schedule their matches over the NRA Championship. The NRA schedule their national championship over canton and Cardinal.
Canton has a long standing history of being on the Friday -Sunday before opening day at Perry. Those dates, for Decades, have been Cantons.
Cardinal, knowing that, schedule their match to bookend with Canton to give the competitors another match to put rounds down range without the “ either or “ decision between Canton and Cardinal.
Then Comes the NRA’s decision to move out of Perry. For several months, both CMP and NRA didn’t publish their “ final “2020 dates. I was calling the line for the DR match ( last relay of the entire match) at Cardinal when I seen the NRA press release with the 2020 dates come across my phone. Some of you that were there, probably can still remember my announcement. Cardinal had already settled their 2020 dates because, well Cardinal is a busy place and scheduling is done years in advance. And I believe that Jim Henderson had to schedule out 3 years already.
I wish the NRA well in there endeavors at Atterbury. I know the struggle of building a massive range complex first hand. It has taken years at Cardinal with very little government red tape. I could not imagine the process and money to build such a range on a military base in less than 6 months. And time is ticking.
On a side note....seeing as the NRA has removed themselves from “ contact “ with the CMP, they can no longer call their match “ The National Matches “
It is now the NRA national Championships. Why the semantics? Well federal law and a congressional mandated.
So the competitors have a decision to make. Depending of your personal budget And the vacation time that you have. Either way, go shoot. Be with friends and enjoy your freedoms while we all have them in Ohio and Indiana
I hope this info helps
Canton and Cardinal did NOT schedule their matches over the NRA Championship. The NRA schedule their national championship over canton and Cardinal.
Canton has a long standing history of being on the Friday -Sunday before opening day at Perry. Those dates, for Decades, have been Cantons.
Cardinal, knowing that, schedule their match to bookend with Canton to give the competitors another match to put rounds down range without the “ either or “ decision between Canton and Cardinal.
Then Comes the NRA’s decision to move out of Perry. For several months, both CMP and NRA didn’t publish their “ final “2020 dates. I was calling the line for the DR match ( last relay of the entire match) at Cardinal when I seen the NRA press release with the 2020 dates come across my phone. Some of you that were there, probably can still remember my announcement. Cardinal had already settled their 2020 dates because, well Cardinal is a busy place and scheduling is done years in advance. And I believe that Jim Henderson had to schedule out 3 years already.
I wish the NRA well in there endeavors at Atterbury. I know the struggle of building a massive range complex first hand. It has taken years at Cardinal with very little government red tape. I could not imagine the process and money to build such a range on a military base in less than 6 months. And time is ticking.
On a side note....seeing as the NRA has removed themselves from “ contact “ with the CMP, they can no longer call their match “ The National Matches “
It is now the NRA national Championships. Why the semantics? Well federal law and a congressional mandated.
So the competitors have a decision to make. Depending of your personal budget And the vacation time that you have. Either way, go shoot. Be with friends and enjoy your freedoms while we all have them in Ohio and Indiana
I hope this info helps
Danehogle- Posts : 381
Join date : 2015-07-13
Location : Mt. Vernon Ohio
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by Schaumannk 1/24/2020, 7:59 am
“So the competitors have a decision to make. Depending of your personal budget And the vacation time that you have. Either way, go shoot. Be with friends and enjoy your freedoms while we all have them in Ohio and Indiana”
Yes they do, But it would be nice if both Canton and Cardinal, with the range limitations that they have, did something to accommodate people who have supported them, by allowing a contingency entry, perhaps with a small 20 dollar extra fee, to accommodate those people who have to make a decision in April or May, but don’t have the information to do so this year?
I didn’t intend for this thread to turn into a complaint thread about about the CMP, the NRA or Canton and Cardinal.
What I would love to see is some sort of insurance to guarantee max participation at all the matches considering the scheduling issues.
Before I make a final decision I would love to see the entry fees for the slate of CMP matches, and whether or not there will even be any matches at Atterbury.
For some people the correct choice, when this shakes out, may be Bristol, Cardinal, Canton, and then home.
Yes they do, But it would be nice if both Canton and Cardinal, with the range limitations that they have, did something to accommodate people who have supported them, by allowing a contingency entry, perhaps with a small 20 dollar extra fee, to accommodate those people who have to make a decision in April or May, but don’t have the information to do so this year?
I didn’t intend for this thread to turn into a complaint thread about about the CMP, the NRA or Canton and Cardinal.
What I would love to see is some sort of insurance to guarantee max participation at all the matches considering the scheduling issues.
Before I make a final decision I would love to see the entry fees for the slate of CMP matches, and whether or not there will even be any matches at Atterbury.
For some people the correct choice, when this shakes out, may be Bristol, Cardinal, Canton, and then home.
Schaumannk- Posts : 613
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by davidbullseye 1/24/2020, 10:16 pm
I guess that I need to chime in for my $.02.
I have been to Perry only three times, once as a NRA volunteer and the next two years as a shooter. During those two years I also shot at CANTON.
What has always impressed me about CANTON was that the people who ran the match were happy that you were there and participated.
What has always impressed me about the NRA at PERRY is that they could have cared less if you were there or not.
I am happy that CMP seems to care about about who will be there. I got a message from a vendor who was surprised that CMP went around at the end of Perry this past year and asked what might be better asking for input.
I will be happy to shoot Cardinal and Canton this year. If there is extra time I will be at Perry. I have little interest to participate in an NRA administrated national match again.
David
I have been to Perry only three times, once as a NRA volunteer and the next two years as a shooter. During those two years I also shot at CANTON.
What has always impressed me about CANTON was that the people who ran the match were happy that you were there and participated.
What has always impressed me about the NRA at PERRY is that they could have cared less if you were there or not.
I am happy that CMP seems to care about about who will be there. I got a message from a vendor who was surprised that CMP went around at the end of Perry this past year and asked what might be better asking for input.
I will be happy to shoot Cardinal and Canton this year. If there is extra time I will be at Perry. I have little interest to participate in an NRA administrated national match again.
David
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Join date : 2017-08-23
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by orpheoet 1/25/2020, 11:38 am
Personally I don't believe the NRA cares about us as competitors. Look at recent history. Has the Distinguished Revolver list been updated in almost 2 years yet? I'll be at The Ohio Triple Crown. Cardinal, Canton, and Perry. Or at least as much of it as I can get to with work..... Just to reiterate Canton's dates have been consistent for decades. Why would the NRA deliberately schedule in conflict with those dates?
Last edited by orpheoet on 1/25/2020, 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addendum)
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Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by valbern67 1/25/2020, 5:05 pm
“while we wait on the NRA who is not taking entries for Nationals until late June. “
What?!?!
What?!?!
valbern67- Posts : 278
Join date : 2018-09-04
Location : Norman, OK
Re: Open Letter to Canton McKinley
by john bickar 1/25/2020, 5:20 pm
Last year I paid my entry fees for Cardinal at the match, I did not have to pre-pay. I don't know whether that's an option for Canton, I've never tried.
This is all much ado about nothing, mark my words: Camp Atterbury will not be suitable for a National Championship by July 2020. There may be an event, there may be a range (that faces South, WTF), there may be match staff, there may be competitors, but it will not be a competition worthy of being called a National Championship.
I truly would like to see the NRA Competitions Division turn things around from what we competitors have been given the last few years, but I'm pessimistic/realistic about that happening in the next 5 months.
This is all much ado about nothing, mark my words: Camp Atterbury will not be suitable for a National Championship by July 2020. There may be an event, there may be a range (that faces South, WTF), there may be match staff, there may be competitors, but it will not be a competition worthy of being called a National Championship.
I truly would like to see the NRA Competitions Division turn things around from what we competitors have been given the last few years, but I'm pessimistic/realistic about that happening in the next 5 months.
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