Open Letter to Canton McKinley

First topic message reminder :

Dear Canton McKinley,    I understand why you had to schedule your Regional  for the weekend preceding the CMP matches at Perry.  Your wonderful match is the top regional in the National for a reason.  
   I have been talking to some of the supported shooters and other shooting friends, and have a couple of concerns.  
    At least one team has told its shooters that they will fund entry fees for the National matches, and one regional as they have in the past.   If the Atterbury range is completed in time, that means, most of those supported shooters and teams will not be shooting Canton due to the conflict.  
     We know that for the last few years that Canton has filled the line, leaving quite a few people in a difficult position.   We can commit to Canton early, and potentially lose our entry fees if the national matches take place at Atterbury.  Or we can wait to see if the venue at Atterbury is up and running, and potentially lose our chance to shoot Canton if the line fills while we wait on the NRA who is not taking entries for Nationals until late June.   

With large numbers of teams and individual shooters coming from outside the state of Ohio, we do not have the ability to just *pop on down* if a space opens up on the line so we can shoot.   There are travel issues and lodging issues, and vacation scheduling issues for those that still work.  
    
 In addition, some people have voiced concerns that the CMP’s high match fees in the past will continue into 2020 and end up pricing a lot of people out of their large slate of matches scheduled for Camp Perry this year.   
      We believe that the NRA has failed to execute a planned organized transition to a new venue, but we have even less faith in the ability of the CMP to run matches at Camp Perry as professionally and as cost effectively as the NRA matches have been run in the past.  
  
 In general,  my loyalty is to the grass roots match directors of the NRA who have allowed me to have more fun over the last 12 years, and meet more wonderful friends than I ever thought possible.  
While the National organization has abandoned these match directors,  range officers and the shooters, the CMP has yet to earn even moderate trust, that they can fill the gap.  

Will there be any provision in the way that Canton takes entries this year to  allow supported shooters, and those that travel long distances to hedge our bets?  Sincerely,  Kate Schaumann

James Hensler wrote:For some reason people think that it takes months to build a pistol range??? Look at Perry their ranges are in a field! Could be built in 30 days or less

The range is perhaps the least of the concerns. Not to mention that this proposed range is in Indiana, as previously mentioned, which has things like "winter" and "spring", that make construction difficult. There are a ton of logistics that go into running even a small monthly match; many more that go into running a large match. They need staff, IT, targets, transportation, spare parts, housing (for staff and competitors), food, ice, water, BC/DR planning, incidentals...all the things that Canton has already been doing for the past 40+ years, and Cardinal has been working on for several years.

Has anyone heard anything about a "test" pistol match at Atterbury before July? Even an approved 2700?

Nobody that has any experience running large matches would hold a National Championship at a new venue without having one or more "shakeout" events prior to the big event. Canton has been running the matches for longer than I've been alive. I am impressed with how quickly the Cardinal Center got their 3600 pre-Canton match up and running, but even there, they had some hiccups, they were in construction for (I think) at least 18 months before July, 2019, and had a couple of test matches before hosting a larger event. They were literally pouring concrete a few weeks before the match last July, and they had been working on the range for over a year.

chiz1180 wrote:So drive about twice as far to possibly shoot at an uncovered south facing range? Those logistics suck.

This comment deserves some love. Who in their right mind would design a range that faces south? Not a shooter.

Schaumannk wrote:But it would be nice if both Canton and Cardinal, with the range limitations that they have, did something to accommodate people who have supported them, by allowing a contingency entry, perhaps with a small 20 dollar extra fee, to accommodate those people who have to make a decision in April or May, but don’t have the information to do so this year?

As I said above, last year I paid at the event at Cardinal. I don't know Canton's refund or prepayment policy. I agree that it would be nice if the McKinley Club offered a reasonable refund of match fees for those that hold out hope to shoot the NRA Nationals.

South or North facing range doesn't matter for matches near the summer solstice.

All the arguments about who stepped on who's date is just silly. Canton was always the week before the National Championships. The Canton dates varied with the dates of the National Matches. The NRA and CMP dates were published. All dates could have been accommodated without picking a fight. Canton CHOSE to side with the CMP and Cardinal against the NRA. I don't know if that will be good or bad in the long run, but it forces competitors to choose which match to attend, which means both matches will have lower than normal attendance.

SteveT wrote:South or North facing range doesn't matter for matches near the summer solstice.

All the arguments about who stepped on who's date is just silly. Canton was always the week before the National Championships. The Canton dates varied with the dates of the National Matches. The NRA and CMP dates were published. All dates could have been accommodated without picking a fight. Canton CHOSE to side with the CMP and Cardinal against the NRA. I don't know if that will be good or bad in the long run, but it forces competitors to choose which match to attend, which means both matches will have lower than normal attendance.

This is exactly how I see it!

Leaving aside one attempt to shoot one indoor BE match more than a half a dozen years ago, I'm a new BE shooter and will celebrate the first anniversary this spring at the upcoming match in Beloit WI. I did shot several matches last year, and that included Canton-McKinley and Perry. I have more time now, so I plan on shooting quite a bit this year. I'd love to be able to shoot at both Canton-McKinley and Atterbury. McKinley was very memorable for me last year, people who organized match were phenomenal, atmosphere of the match and everything around it was in par, and, of course, the moment of seeing Papa John soaking wet pulling everything out of his range bag, turning it upside down to dump water and then going back to the line to shoot his next relay - this was priceless! Perry in turn was totally different - experience was overwhelming. Thanks to the Wisconsin team, which I was part of from stand point of accommodations at Perry, this experience was just overwhelming as opposed to crashing, and I'm ready for the next one at both Atterbury and Perry.

With that said, I want to offer a bit a different perspective I have on the subject. I do not want to speculate the underlying reasons why McKinley and Cardinal dates are in conflict with NRA's. I don't want to speculate of NRA conflicting with CMP, and clubs taking sides. What I know for sure, is that matches provide financial support for clubs. And I know for sure that NRA needs support as well, - there is simply no other organization at National Level advocating for 2A at the level NRA does. And that is important for me! IMHO we need both, clubs and NRA thrive and be well. With that said I'll happily forgo my registration fee at either McKinley or Atterbury or both. I understand, that many of you have opinion that participation is what warrants payment, or let me say it in reverse, - payment is warranted by participation in the event. Needless to say, I view it differently.

AP

As a member of CMR&PC, and not speaking for anyone really the deal with our date is that we really tried to schedule in accordance with Perry and Atterbury  and with the input of the majority of shooters who shoot our regional match.  Keep in mind our regional is run as a volunteer event from top to the bottom by our members.  That being said, a date needed to be settled on rather timely.  The date wasn't picked intentionally to thumb our nose at the NRA or to  put shooters in a bad spot, but logistically based on what we could do.  Of course the historical timing with the matches at Perry (and now Cardinal) were also considered by Tom and Jeff, as were (again)  the opinion of our competitors. The club knows that it is a possibility that our dates may need to change in the future, and we will likely do so if necessary.

I'm going to be at Cardinal (I hope), Canton, and Perry. 

I am the person who asked "What is the backup plan if the range at Atterbury is not ready," at the Perry Competitors meeting. The answer to that question from the Director of Competitions was, "There isn't one."

I have designed, built, run and migrated systems for 34 years. I have always had more than one "backup plan."

I was also one of those people who was emptying and shaking water out of his pistol box at Canton last year. I can't say it was fun, but I can say that it was a great match.

I don't understand the concern about building a range. It is a very small job for many construction companies and can be completed in a month or two. The back up plan is they put a few benches in the middle of a field, which is what we've done for the last 100+ years at Camp Perry.

I expect lots of problems with registration, scoring, housing etc. Targets and the range are a piece of cake by comparison.

SteveT wrote:I don't understand the concern about building a range. It is a very small job for many construction companies and can be completed in a month or two. The back up plan is they put a few benches in the middle of a field, which is what we've done for the last 100+ years at Camp Perry.

I expect lots of problems with registration, scoring, housing etc. Targets and the range are a piece of cake by comparison.

So turning targets are required for registered competition (Rule 6.8a), National championships are registered tournaments (Rule 1.6c). So who sells a turning target system with a few hundred points?

chiz1180 wrote:

SteveT wrote:I don't understand the concern about building a range. It is a very small job for many construction companies and can be completed in a month or two. The back up plan is they put a few benches in the middle of a field, which is what we've done for the last 100+ years at Camp Perry.

I expect lots of problems with registration, scoring, housing etc. Targets and the range are a piece of cake by comparison.

So turning targets are required for registered competition (Rule 6.8a), National championships are registered tournaments (Rule 1.6c). So who sells a turning target system with a few hundred points?

Ding... Ding... Ding!

Details, Details.

Turning target are easy. Hydraulic pump or air compressor, a suitable piston, off the shelf valves and timer circuit, a few hundred pieces of metal, bolt together and go shooting. There are a ton of fabrication shops that could turn out the metal pieces in a week or two. It wouldn't even be considered a big job.

I don't have a lot of faith in the NRA to execute the national championships smoothly. I fully expect the first couple of years are going to be a mess, but I am going to give them a chance. Too many people here have declared the Atterbury National Championships a failure even though they haven't happened yet.

Everybody acts like this is the 1st National Match the NRA has ever held! It is just a change of venue!


I would worry about the CMP trying to run their 1st 2700!

How did the changes of venue work for High Power and Smallbore? Neither of those required any construction. 

One of the ways that we judge the chance of success of a project is the previous projects an organization has done.

jmdavis wrote:How did the changes of venue work for High Power and Smallbore? Neither of those required any construction. 

One of the ways that we judge the chance of success of a project is the previous projects an organization has done.

In 2019 high power had 86 shooters across the course.... Clearly the NRA knows how to move National Championships. They straight gave up doing match administration for Bianchi.

Hold up! The number of competitors has nothing to with registration and conducting the matches. Now moving the venue does but I don’t think the match was ran improperly

From a Mid Atlantic shooters perspective,  Perry is a 7 hr or so drive. Camp Atterbery is a 10+ hrs drive per Google. My goal is to complete my EIC quals. I have the 30 points but no major leg yet. I asked myself,

1) Should I go to the NRA matches @ Atterbery for a 2700 and then Camp Perry for their 2700 & National Matches and spend an extra 6 hours +/- on the road.  or

2) Should I go Canton for their 2700 match (which I love) followed by the CMP's 2700 and the CMP  National matches.

I'm opting for option 2 to save 6+ hours of driving, participate in a match I really enjoy,  and avoid the frustration of learning a whole new range and living set up. Besides my rifle shooter friends that attended the 1st year at Atterberg we very dismissive of the conditions especially the south facing ranges. With my senior eyes, seeing the black with Irons is hard enough with out the sun in my eyes.

Maybe next year for Atterbery, but sadly I doubt it. Seems I'll just focus on the closer Canton/CMP matches for the coming years.

I wish the best to the NRA National Shooters and look forward to hearing about your experiences on the forum.


Just my 2 cents.

The CMP National Matches are cancelled as well, so your only option is Cardinal and Canton......

I'm driving to Ohio from New Jersey.

Val

OOps Obviously I haven't been paying attention to the Forum or my email. I'll check my calander re Cardinal. i've been hearing good stuff about their facilities.

Thanks for pulling my head out of the sand.

davidbullseye wrote:I guess that I need to chime in for my $.02.

I have been to Perry only three times, once as a NRA volunteer and the next two years as a shooter.  During those two years I also shot at CANTON.  

What has always impressed me about CANTON was that the people who ran the match were happy that you were there and participated.  

What has always impressed me about the NRA at PERRY is that they could have cared less if you were there or not.  

I am happy that CMP seems to care about about who will be there.  I got a message from a vendor who was surprised that CMP went around at the end of Perry this past year and asked what might be better asking for input.  

I will be happy to shoot Cardinal and Canton this year.  If there is extra time I will be at Perry.  I have little interest to participate in an NRA administrated national match again. 

David

+1 only I competed at both. Coming from several competitive well organized world wide event driven organisations for the past 40 + years the NRA showed me right up front the very first year they could care less about me competing and just loved those Benjamins.