What red dots are the top shooters using?

First topic message reminder :

With so many red dots out there I was wondering what red dots the top shooters are using for bullseye competition. 22 and 45 events ? The ultra dot match dominated for years.

There have been several reports of red dot sights failing or even coming apart during match use. Could this be because they are attached to the slide and are flying back and forth with each shot? This concern is why I am partial to the UM3 sight mount attaching to the rail under the frames of my pistols. Overall there is less strain on the machinery of the red dot. What say you?

Any other options out there for high end optics besides aimpoint? Aimpoint would be great if they had a 30mm tube and brightness adjustment that worked from 1 to 10 etc. Aimpoint told me there dots are designed for hunting in low light conditions such as dusk and dawn hunting conditions. It's not designed for bullseye shooting.

smsnyder wrote:Any other options out there for high end optics besides aimpoint?  Aimpoint would be great if they had a 30mm tube  and brightness adjustment that worked from 1 to 10 etc. Aimpoint told me there dots are designed for hunting in low light conditions such as dusk and dawn hunting conditions. It's not designed for bullseye shooting.

Not much is “designed” for bullseye.... maybe adjustable irons?

At the end of the day you gotta get some and see what you like. I think the aimpoints are more rugged and will last longer than the ultradot, if you are concerned with having the perfect brightness of dot for every single shot I’d say your mind isn’t in the right place during those shots. From my view, most top shooters are using either H1 or 9000 aimpoints and they do just fine with only 2 or 3 useable settings.

I hate products that have useless adjustments. Lol Like buying a horse with three legs. Yes it can still walk but not run well. Lol Anyone out there want to buy a three leg horse? Lol

With the 9000SC the brightest setting is too bright unless you're shooting on the surface of the sun. The next to the highest setting seems ideal for outdoor shooting on a sunny day. The 3 setting down works really well for a cloudy day or shooting indoors. No complaints from me, I love the dot, even though its got a 30mm tube the viewable is noticeably larger than other 30mm tubes. I do kind of miss the elevation turret on the MD2.

I have 5 ultradots. One quirk is that the numerical brightness numbers are meaningless between the different dots. For example on my 22 if the brightness is set on '3' when I switch to my 45 setting '3' is not the same level of brightness, even with both batteries new. From briefly handing a few aimpoints, the glass is superior and the build quality is better. My next dot likely will be an aimpoint.

Shue uses a 9000SC and uses it well.

My goal is to get my shoulder strength back up post surgery to hold a heavy sight on a heavy gun.

There are 2 versions of the 9000SC. Four, if you consider 2moa and 4 moa. The standard 9000SC has 9 useable daylight settings. The 9000SC-NV has 4 Night Vision compatible settings. The first 4. And 5 daylight settings. My first 9000 was NV compatible but was not marked as such and I was also disgusted with not being able to use Half the dial. My next one worked on all 9 settings. There was some problem with marking on the early issues. Check it out. Read up on the NV too.

https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-9000sc/


I have only 2 Aimpoint 9000sc left in my stable. Mounted where Aimpoint recommended. On Magnum handguns.

smsnyder wrote:With so many red dots out there I was wondering what red dots the top shooters are using for bullseye  competition. 22 and 45 events ?  The ultra dot match dominated for years.

The reason you gave for not liking the Aimpoint H-1 and H-2 Micro sights, and the larger Aimpoint 9000sc, is that they provide lots of brightness settings, but only two or three are useful in daylight.  I have all three sights, and that never bothered me, as I just found a position that worked, and left it there.

I also have a Bushnell TRS 25, that apparently can be purchased at a very low price; the brightness settings range from 0 to 11.  Looking out my window on a clear sunny morning, position 11 is more than bright enough (but not as bright as other sights seem to be capable of), and I can get down to position 2 or 3 and still find the (very faint) dot.  If you want a sight that looks like an Aimpoint Micro, weighs about the same, and so far seems to be a reasonable choice, you might consider the Bushnell.  As soon as I'm willing to spend the $$, I'll probably buy another Aimpoint H-2, or at least decide which of my High Standard gun I'll put the one on that I have now.  It's currently on my Victor, with the Bushnell on the X-Series. 
 

I don't know how long it will last, or how hard/easy it is on batteries, or how good their quality control is - but based on the experience of one (that I bought at a club's swap meet for only $25), I like it.  Specs, and a very high price can be found here:   https://www.bushnell.com/products/red-dots/trophy/trophy-trs-25-red-dot-sight/ .

I've got two Matchdot II sights, which increase the weight of my gun to where I'm not as steady.  The Aimpoint is fine, and the Bushnell is fine.  I need to do a lot more dry-fire to get used to the weight - over a long match, my guns tend to feel heavier once I'm half way through the match.  That's a "me" problem, not a sight problem, but I need to work around it.  Now looking into a "four dot one inch Ultradot", but no luck in finding one so far (anyone here want to sell one?).


(At the same swap meet, I also got a TC, Thompson Center??, red/green dot sight that's about the size of the Aimpoint Micro.  I haven't tried it yet.  It looks like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RED-DOT-GREEN-DOT-LASTER-OPTIC-for-10-22-1913-Picatinny-Mount-Red-Dot-Tactical-/143170384643 .....but I have no idea yet how good it is.  It's certainly inexpensive though.)


Whether any of these are suitable for Bullseye is a good question.  Maybe someone who has already tried them can post their opinion.  I doubt a "top shooter" would pick any of these over the Aimpoint, unless he could't afford something better, but it will be fun to try them out anyway.

I have standardized on Sig Romeo Sights. All my competition pistols now have Romeo 4M sights, and backup pistols are equipped with Romeo 5 sights. Both of these are derivatives from Aimpoint micro sights. Romeo 4 has better optics and the M version is very rugged because it is built to Mil Spec. The sight appears to be holding up very well, slide-mounted on a .45. Elevation and windage adjustments are finer than Ultradots - more clicks are required to move the point of impact. 
These sights do not have click brightness adjustments, but have "up/down" buttons instead - a matter of preference, I know that some people don't like this.

Regards,
Oleg.

I talked to a Sig CSR and asked point blank about their red dots’ suitability for slide mounted 45s.  They told me that the only pistols they do not recommend their sights be used on are 10mm.  Everything else was fine.  This includes their Romeo 1, 4 and 5.

Regarding the Bushnell TRS 25, any recommendation I seemed to make is retracted, at least for outdoor use.  Tried it at the range - on the brightest setting, I could barely see the dot against the target, and my friend standing next to me never saw it at all.  I suppose for indoor use it is fine.  As to the TC, it's about the same brightness.  I guess I'll put both up for sale.

The best sight I have (no issues, problems, concerns, whatever) is the Aimpoint H2, and I guess ditto for my H1.  The H2 is now moved to my High Standard X Series, and my "The Victor" will have steel sights mounted again by tomorrow.

Matchdot II is fine for sunlight - but I would prefer something lighter, and the one people have suggested (4-dot, 1" tube) seems to be made out of unobtanium....      :-(

Mike, regarding the "4-dot" 1" tube: You may be mixing up two things. As far as I know, Ultradot has never produced a 1" sight with multiple size reticles (dots). Original Ultradot sight is a 1" tube with a 4-MOA dot and it is lighter than a Matchdot. The current generation of the same 1" tube sight has a 2-MOA dot, instead of the 4-MOA dot.
Therefore, you may be chasing a unicorn.
Please note that many of the Ultradot sights, including 1" tubes suffer from so-called negative magnification. This means that the sight makes the target appear smaller. It never bothered me when I was shooting Ultradots. All my Ultradots are 1" tubes.
There is an early edition of the sight, labeled "Oakshore Electronics" instead of "Ultradot", which does not have negative magnification. Yet, that sight does not have clickable discreet adjusments for windage and elevation. Instead the dials move smoothly. I have one of those.

Regards,
Oleg.

From Ultradots FAQ sheet. Spacing requirements for the 1" 4 dot.

http://www.ultradotusa.com/ultradotdist2010_015.htm

Len, from the page you linked to:

"Ultradot 25 (1 3/4"), 30mm (1 7/8"), FOUR Dot 1" (2 1/4"), FOUR Dot 30mm / Matchdot (2 1/4"). "




If I were to buy one, is the "four dot" what I want, and what does it mean by "four dot"?
If the 4 means "MOA", shouldn't it now be 2, as Oleg posted above?
If the image size is reduced, that makes it less desirable to me.

I think this whole quest is chasing unicorns.  
Personally, other than for the price, the Aimpoint H-2 (with a Kodiak if for 45) seems like the best compromise for me.  That it doesn't have lots of brightness settings for outdoors never bothered me.  I just figure out what setting works for outdoors, and use that same setting from then on.

Mike. They don't make them anymore. They haven't for a long time. A new 2 moa is all you need. I prefer a 4 moa but have no problem with 2's. Without going back and reading my post I'm pretty sure I mentioned discontinued. If I didn't I should have.

Len

Probably me getting discombobulated.  Maybe I got several mixed up.  Thanks, I'm all set for now.  I want to put the iron sights back on the Victor, and use it that way if I can.  If not, I'll figure out what to do with optics.

lakemurrayman wrote:

mikemyersMike ,I'll be happy to take tha victor off your hands wrote: ,i"ll be glad to take the victor off your hands.............

.......... If I knew then, what I know now, I'd have bought (Alan's) new gun before I ever left for India.  
I wouldn't trade either gun, even-up, for a Pardini.

Not gonna happen.  I moved the Aimpoint H-2 from the Victor to the X-Series.  Totally happy with that setup.  I've never tried (or even seen) the 1" Ultradot, but based on what I have experienced, the Aimpoint is still as good as it gets, for me, in every way.  

As to the Victor, it's going to go back to the way Roddy sent it to me, with the steel sights.  


I can't get to the range tomorrow - I plan on going Sunday, after their "Combat Match" ends.

Someone mentioned sightron... I sent one back as it failed the parallax test.  e.g. place the RD on a table, ideally looking at a target, and then move your head around behind it. If you see the dot move around against the background then whatever movement you see is how far off your shot will be if you're aiming and the dot isn't centered. The sightron showed movement barely off center on one side. Many of the newer short red dots show a lot of movement not far off center. I think the longer tubes inherently have more stability just as a longer sight length is more precise/stable. Most reflex sights I've seen are also terrible, but I haven't used the high end ones.

This is where real instead of fake optical design comes in. Ultradot and older long tube 30mm PDP2/3 propoints (ebay) show high stability. The older propoints also have continuously variable dimness from zero which is nice because one of my ultradots I only use on 1 or 2 in my typical indoor basement ranges used here in the winter.

Look at the cmore railway red dot
Super nice field of view. You can change dios from 2 moa to 12 moa in seconds. Super bright if you need it. I just put one on my volquartsen black mamba 22 to shoots steel targets. Tokyo optic makes the ,vortex ,sig remio, ultra dot ,cmore red dots etc. All come out of the same factory in japan.

Why 1" tube size?  Besides this tube size being lighter, your eye more naturally locates the dot because with the narrow tube, the tube view itself (if dot was off) more automatically locates your eye along the axis of the tube so that the dot will become visible.  The sunshades also increase this effect. You've probably at some point held up a RD and had to wag your wrist around looking for the dot. The narrow tubes reduce this problem.

Also, parallax is reduced in a 1" tube. What is parallax?  Place your gun on a sandbag aimed at the target and then move your head around looking through the RD.  you will see the dot come off the bullseye and maybe even the bull in some parts of the point of view.  Narrower tubes reduce this and some products are really bad here.  Someone mentioned a sightron and I picked up a deal on one.  I checked it for parallax and returned it immediately.  There was substantial parallax drift no more than 50% away from the center.  I'd certainly rather shoot with the dot centered in the tube view, but with no reference except the view it's easy for the dot to drift to the side in which case you won't be on the x anymore. Cheap RDs can be very functional but often have more parallax so you should definitely be aware of this effect.

FWIW…I have a number of UD sights, from the Matchdots and others…no two dots are the same on any of them. Also have negative magnification which is not ideal. Too many failures also. 

If you’re looking to use them in the slide: My H1 Aimpoints however have rarely failed (1 out of about 8 ) and they repaired with no issues, and they are all consistent across the board. Get Jon Shue’s shades mounted, and you have a winning combination. 
If you’re using them on bridge mounts, almost any decent dot will suffice. I use the Holosun 403B and they are perfect in this configuration. Very affordable too. 
YMMV 
And…in case you may be wondering…most folks who have issues seeing sharp round dots usually require professional assistance with glasses 
/prescriptions to accommodate astigmatism and other physical conditions that may come into play. Some find that irises, or pin hole stickers do the trick also…whatever works best for you.

Primary arms products are economical alternative to Aimpoint and I think they are a little better than the sig and fit shades nicely. 

I have a Primary Arms Classic for sale , for 85 shipped. Almost Brand new.

I have purchased quite a few red dot scopes, looking at the shelf above my computer I see 11 boxes, most are full and a few boxes at my shop. I have 6 pistols with red Dot scopes and only 3 empty boxes for them! I've sold a few that after testing I found were lousy and when I look at what's available I refuse to by anything with night vision settings! I do make mistakes Like with the Leupold Freedom RDS! Parallax returns the scope in the box and on my shelf too! When Adam was younger we both used UltraDot but with Adam because the amount he shot I replaced the Ultradot after every season. Recoil damages them, I took one apart to see what was happening. I did buy the Russian red dot scopes to test, see another topic. So far they are working great! Might change after shooting with them! I also will not put apture inserts on a Red Dot scope, why should I??? I got red dots to get away from sight alignment and the option to look at the target not the sights!
 As of now I see that the Russian sights from Belarus have been pulled off ebay. Only Russian sights are those for sale by vendors in the USA. Primarily very cheap ones.
 Most of the Red Dot makers have abandoned the pistol shooters and cater to the AR shooters.