32ACP - The quest for the best bullet

I have commented on various recent threads that I am struggling with the 32ACP, both the gun and the ammo. It is very frustrating.

FC60 made the valid observation "show me the groups!" - before attesting that any particular bullet/recipe is good or bad. Fair comment.

I'm lucky that my local range continues to be open and, even better, very few others use it, so I can take my time to get set up and test ammo as well as practise. The only problem is that the range is only 15yds. OK, not truly representative for Bullseye testing, but I figure that if the ammo does not group well at 15 then it surely will not be better at 25/50 yards. Eventually, once I've homed in on a gun/ammo combo that seems to perform well, and the CV restrictions are lifted, I'll go and do more testing at 25/50.

I've never tried to bench rest a handgun before, so please excuse me if my technique is not optimal. I bought a Caldwell Pistolero Rest like this. 

And set up on the range bench using a garden chair. I put the Caldwell G2 Chrono on a tripod at about 15ft in line with the target frame at 45ft. I have found that results are more consistent if I position the chrono so that the bullets are passing through towards the bottom and middle of the "window". That means I have to go and re-position the chrono after every couple of strings. I collect the data on my phone via bluetooth. After quite a bit of testing I now know that as soon as I see an "ERROR" signal on the chrono it is best to just go and cycle it off/on then re-establish the bluetooth connection and resume testing (PITA). Setup looks like this (it is still quite cold here most days, hence my Mr. Buddy heater on the bench!).

I've got a 2-7x scope sight with a 1" body which drops straight into place on the Warne rings on my Pardini HP32.

I ran some CCI SV through my SP22 (using the red dot) first just to confirm that the set-up is OK. I saw ~920fps and decent groups between 0.5 to 0.75 inch with a flyer caused by me.

Then I ran some factory PMC 32ACP 60gr JHP through the HP32. Results were not as good as I would have hoped. Velocity fairly consistent at between 950 to 970fps, but the groups were not great at 1.5 to 2 inch. This is the best of those groups:-

I took a lot of care loading test batches of Hornady XTP bullets. The best group was with 1.8grn of VV N310, but, Murphy's Law, the darn chrono did not record the velocity. Grrr...

I tried 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 grains of VV N310 with the XTP60 bullets. I tried COAL 0.840 and 0.900. Crimp all at 0.330. Starline or PMC once or twice fired brass, selected. 
1.4 ~ 800fps
1.6 ~ 900fps
1.8 ~ 950fps
Group sizes were all in the range of 1.25 to 1.75 inch (after discounting the odd flyer caused by me).
So I cannot settle on a preferred powder load till I can test again at 25/50 yards, but I believe I my XTP ammo can produces better groups than factory PMC. Good.

I tried both XTP 85 and XTP100. Loaded with Accurate #2 or VV N310.
The best of the XTP85 groups was this:-

XTP85 velocities like this:-
AA#2 - 1.6 ~690fps
N310 - 1.7 ~890fps
N310 - 1.8 ~925fps
Rested group sizes were in line with the XTP60 results.
I did shoot a few SF cards offhand and got decent groups with the N310 1.7 load, but again this needs to be confirmed at 25/50 yards.

XTP100 velocities like this:-
AA#2 - 1.4 ~610fps
I was cautious with these bullets as someone had warned that they might cause damage, so I only shot a couple of strings and did not have the opportunity to measure rested groups.

OK, so it is no surprise that the rather expensive XTP bullets can produce decent (but not great) results, but what about cheaper bullets?

First up I tried some Berry's 71grn copper plated LRN's. They look nice and load easily. I tried them with Accurate #2 powder. 
AA#2 - 1.6 ~840fps
AA#2 - 1.8 ~900fps
AA#2 - 2.0 ~950fps
Maybe others can find a better way, but for me these bullets are hopeless. Here is an example of a 20 shot rested "group" next to a 10 shot group of PMC factory.

Well, I think that I managed to keep all 20 on the paper! And this was from the rest! Would not even rate as a decent shotgun pattern!

I bought a box of T&B 60grn LSWC uncoated blue lubed LSWC's from a Forum member - thanks! 
I don't think they make these any longer. I did a weight selection process which is described in a separate thread. They produce similar "patterns" as the Berry's. Hopeless.

I also tried some T&B 64grn Hi-Tec coated LSWC's, these seem to be somewhat better and other Forum members have reported decent results for short line loads.
I only had a small quantity left when I prepared ammo for group tests, but I carefully loaded up some with COAL 0.840, Crimp 0.330 and actually got quite decent results. Here are the best two groups:-
 
I must say that in my previous testing and off-hand shooting I did not feel confident with these bullets, but I'm going to order some more as these groups suggest that I may have been mis-handling them and I need to try again.
Velocities for the T&B 64 LSWC as follows:-
N310 - 1.6 ~930fps
N310 - 1.8 ~1,100fps
I did not try them with AA#2 or lighter loads of N310. I'm thinking that 1.5 of N310 might be a sweet spot. I will test again in the future.

So. Sorry that this is a rather long post, but the bottom line for me is that (the now discontinued) XTP60's produce the best results, the XTP85's are good (and maybe can be better with more recipe tuning and testing). The T&B 64 Hi-Tec LSWC's have surprised me and require more work.

The rest are no good! IMHO.

But, even with reasonable ammo, I still don't get good 900 CF results with my HP32. I'm disappointed that it does not seem to be possible to buy really good target quality factory 32ACP ammo (I've tried Fiocchi, PMC and Winchester, but it is all intended for the home defence market and is too hot for Bullseye), but, as my recent testing has proved, I can produce decent quality reloads, so I really cannot blame the ammo. Grrr......

Very interesting. Appreciate the post! I cannot get to the range. My place is closed right now, glad to see you could get some testing!

Hi Roy,
Thanks for posting your results. I like the detail you put into them!
In 2005 I had Dave make me a 32acp barrel for my GSP as an experiment using a reamer I had made up. Later a barrel for my Erma EXP-85 using a Krieger .312 x 10" twist blank, so my results may differ.

I have been using 1.3grs of TiteWad or 1.6grs of vv310 powders with all bullets used. Might try some of the slower 9mm powders, like Power Pistol & WSF with the thinking that the cases are kind of the same. I load on a Star where the powder delivery components have been blueprinted to reduce any slop resulting in good consistency of the powder charges. 

For timed & rapid fire I determined a long time ago to use the T&B 78gr RN sized to .313.
https://tbbullets.com/bullets/traditional-lubed/32-2/
I chose these because I can shoot cleans using them with no problems, such as having failure to feeds and the accompanying loss of concentration.

I tried Dave's swaged bullets at 50 yards with good results and am impatiently awaiting his next series of test results.

Scott, thanks for the pointer re' T&B 78LRN - I'd not thought of trying them. I've just ordered some 64LSWC, maybe I'll add some of the LRN's now too.

Glad to hear that you are using 32ACP, several other HM's have advised against using a 32 for CF and, currently, I'm seeing better scores with my 45 SARO than my 32. I'm suspicious of the barrel quality in my HP32, but it is difficult to confirm that at present. Got a few more things to test before I get to any clear conclusion.

In the meantime, I'm far behind you with my CF & 45 scores anyway - and that is all down to me, not the guns/ammo.

Cheers,

Relax it will come to you in time! A good starting point is everything in the 10 ring at 50. Once you get to that point then you can fine tune what your pistol actually likes. In time 8 out of 10 Ax’s is about as good as it’s going to get without a ransom rest! Too many variables without it! Just relax

This is just about the best I can do without a ransom! Try getting to this and your score will go up

Nice shooting James!
Particulars please!!!

Just the normal! 
85 XTP
Starline
Federal primers 
1.5 -1.7 grains of N310
.895 
Thanks it no secret

G.. D... It!!! I can feel the heat over the ether of Jim Hensler gloating! Yes, OK, Jim, you might be on to something good. Well done. Take a bow

Seeing Jim's repeated assertion that XTP85 JHP's over N310 are "the dog's bollocks" (as they used to say in the country of my birth), this morning I loaded a batch with 1.6grn of VV N310. 0.900" COAL, 0.330" very light taper crimp using once or twice fired PMC brass. It was noticeable that the PMC brass distorts somewhat with these longer 85 bullets, but still passes the plunk test satisfactorily.

Usual drill, but I had the UD 1" back on my Pardini HP32. I think that my bench resting technique is improving a bit cause I did not feel any significant flyers this time. Sorry, please note that I marked these cards as XTP100 at the range, they are definitely XTP85 - senior moment!


Average: 840 FPS
StdDev: 8.50

Average: 830 FPS
StdDev: 16.98

Average: 833
StdDev: 7.50 (only 5 shots recorded)

OK, I know that this is only 45 feet, but considering my lack of skill at bench resting and using the UD sight, I think that these are pretty decent groups - #2 is just under 1". 

So, somewhat inspired by this result I went on later in the afternoon to shoot a full 900 CF course (using NRA 50 foot targets at 45 feet - except that I had run out of B-2 Slow fire cards and had to use all B-3 TF/RF cards - never mind, the black is the same diameter and I used a previously fired B-2 to judge the score of the SF cards). I feel that the recoil from this recipe is quite similar to the factory 60JHP "defence" loads, that means it is still quite hot. The last RF card (bottom middle) is actually XTP60 loads, I ran out of the XTP85's.

This is the first time since mid-last year just after I bought the HP32 when I felt as though I was calling almost every shot fired. This is actually a Personal Best CF 900 for me and the 99 SF is a PB CF SF card for me also. OK, it is only practise, at the incorrect distance and on the wrong cards - all true - but the score is not really the issue - FINALLY I feel as though I've got some ammo that suits the gun. Hurrah!

These results have restored some faith regarding the Pardini HP32 - I've been so frustrated and was beginning to wonder whether the barrel was defective or something. That does not seem to be case.

I will now embark on some testing of variations on this recipe, maybe with 1.5 and 1.4 grains of N310, just to see how it feels. But I cannot reach any definitive conclusion before I see some results at 25/50 yards. I've also ordered some T&B Hi-Tec 64LSWC and 78LRN for further load development and testing. (Top marks to Travis at T&B - fantastic customer service - late on a Saturday night - instant email responses and clarifications - excellent!).

One thing that I'm now suspicious of is the quality of the PMC factory 60JHP ammo. I've never been able to get tight groups with that ammo and have been constantly frustrated by not being able to consistently call my shots. When I first got the HP32 I was using "bumped" Fiocchi factory ammo and saw decent results. I moved on to PMC not realising that it is obviously not good. Lesson learned!

OK, Jim, calm down now

I have a P240 converted to 32 ACP. 1:10 twist 0.308. It shot 0.8” when built with Hornady XTP ammunition. I tried the PMC ammo and it shoots huge groups offhand at 25 yds. I shots it the other day with ammunition  Greg Benner loaded for me; 1.4 VV310 and T&B 64 gr (?) bullets. I was easily grouping x ring. Was surprised with all the negative chit chat about the T&B’s. Will definitely RR both 25 & 50 with them to see reality.
Jon

Well look at that!

Jon Eulette wrote:I have a P240 converted to 32 ACP. 1:10 twist 0.308. It shot 0.8” when built with Hornady XTP ammunition. I tried the PMC ammo and it shoots huge groups offhand at 25 yds. I shots it the other day with ammunition  Greg Benner loaded for me; 1.4 VV310 and T&B 64 gr (?) bullets. I was easily grouping x ring. Was surprised with all the negative chit chat about the T&B’s. Will definitely RR both 25 & 50 with them to see reality.
Jon

Jon I don’t know what it is with these T&B 64’s! I personally could not get them to outperform the 60 XTP’s when I tried them. The XTP’s at 25 almost held a 1 hole X ring and the T&B’s opened up to the 10 ring! I tried different powders and charges. I tried different OAL’s but my groups didn’t improve so I gave up. Now with the 60’s gone I have thoughts of trying again but I have a friend who might be on to something of his own and if this Virus ever goes away I am going to try.

Jon,

Can I ask did you do the P240 conversion to 32ACP? What barrel did you use? And were you able to use the 32 S&W Long magazine?

Thank you

Dave Sams built the pistol; he relined, made optic mount, but didn't do any work on the pistol for reliable function. Lothar Walther barrel liner; 1:10 0.308. I'm working on reliable extraction fix now. The magazine is the ejector and is slightly too short for 100% reliability. So I'm working on a couple mods when I have time (very little).
Jon

Thank you for the info.!

Does anyone know what alloy/Brinell T&B uses?  I can't find anything on their site other than the title that says "hardcast," which could mean almost anything other than pure lead.

Greetings,

Contact these guys, maybe they will know...

I casted the 32 acp head for awhile when I was shooting a stock Pardini. Making a nice soft projectile made for great groups. FC60 tested my Ammo, and even with varying spreads in velocity due to me being new at reloading at that time, the groups were X ring at 50 with an occasional 10 ring flier. I couldn't get xtp heads to work on the 0.314 barrel in the Pardini. I had to cast nice soft heads to work. With a custom barrel, the XtPs will be fine, but they were too small for the stock Pardini barrel. That Pardini shot awesome. I only abandoned that platform because I did not have the time to run two guns and reloading programs, so I went straight forty five.

Murph wrote:I casted the 32 acp head for awhile when I was shooting a stock Pardini.     Making a nice soft projectile made for great groups.  FC60 tested my Ammo, and even with varying spreads in velocity due to me being new at reloading at that time, the groups were X ring at 50 with an occasional 10 ring flier.    I couldn't get xtp heads to work on the 0.314 barrel in the Pardini.    I had to cast nice soft heads to work.    With a custom barrel, the XtPs will be fine, but they were too small for the stock Pardini barrel.   That Pardini shot awesome.  I only abandoned that platform because I did not have the time to run two guns and reloading programs, so I went straight forty five.

I would be interested in some of the specs on this bullet, and your reloading data  thanks,  Kate

Greetings,

It has been a while since I tested Murph's ammo.

I 'think' they were the Accurate 31-060A bullet.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-060A-D.png

If you do order a mould from Accurate be sure to mention the as cast diameter with the alloy you plan to use.

Also, consider a five cavity mould.

I would prefer the Iron mould, not Aluminum nor Brass.



Cheers,

Dave

I just don’t know you can improve on this. Once I got my loads to due this I quit playing with it and just started working on fundamentals and my scores are heading in the right direction

Is it possible to see older post. I failed to write down some load info when I was reading yesterday. I'm new to the forum and stating to load 32 ACP for my Pardini.

I can try to help you. 

1st take 90% of what you read about 32ACP with a grain of salt. I honestly believe people over analyze this cartridge and it screws them up in the long run and sell their shit because they could not get it to work. 
If you do what I am about to say you will be ahead of a lot of shooters.  

Buy 1000 Starline Brass. Do not get anything else
Buy Lee 4 Carbide die set. Do not get anything else
Any press is good enough
Buy 1000 85 Grain XTP Bullets 
Buy Federal Primers. They are soft and very consistent 
Buy 1lb of N310 

When setting up your dies if you have a single or 5 station press use a Lyman expansion die because it helps when you charge the case with a powder measure 
Only expand the mouth enough that the bullet fits nicely in the case by hand 
Make 100% sure your measure is throwing 1.6 every single time. When you don’t have a lot of powder 1/10th makes a big difference 
Seat to .895 
Crimp just enough to pass the check gauge

This load will hold X at 50 yards from a solid rest in your Pardini

If you do anything else I hope it works for you and you enjoy shooting your Pardini but I have my doubts. Yes Dave makes great barrels and from a barrel rest shoots very nice groups. Don seems to have a lot of good things going on in his ACP program. I want to see someone post a 50 yard group shot with a stock Pistol that’s better than what I have posted here.

Not to pick a nit here James,   But I have been totally unable to find a Lee 4 die set for 32 ACP.   Does such an animal exist?   Plenty of three die sets, and the most recommended one is the Redding, which I have on order.  

Also if anyone has a source for actually “in stock” 85g Hornady Bullets,  I would love to know what it is.   At this point, I think we won’t be seeing them again until after the election.  

Everything else,  I think you are spot on.  

Also, does anyone have a source for a good 32 ACP case gauge?  Does Pardini sell one?  The only one so far is Uniquetek,  and with shipping “ser teuer”  for just one item.

If you can’t find a 4 die then buy the 3 die set and add 90067 factory crimp die. EBay has several 

Call Jim at US Reloading Supply 
941-204-7492 Tell him I sent ya!