185 JHP over WST horrific groups ? ? ?

I am dialing in my Rock River Arms BE wadcutter (nice gun).  200g LSWC over 4.2 of WST is about all in the X at 25 yards using a bag to support my arm.  At 50 yards of course more open but that is as much lack of a ransom rest as anything, but all in the black.  Can't get the Federal Gold Medal Match that is guaranteed 1.5" with the gun so got some Magnus 185JHP as I keep reading about that.  I worked up some loads and at 4.6 grains WST and average 782fps with SD of 18 the groups at 50 yards (4 groups of 5 shots) were from 8-10" in size.  New starline brass, Winchester LP, all metered with an RCBS Chargemaster.  I was meticulous and they sucked.  I can live with the LSWC if the league starts up (doubtful) but not sure why the 185JHP is so bad.  I have Unique and Bullseye on hand too.  The 4.5 and 4.7 loads were a bit worse with that bullet.  Any insight? Thank you in advance.

Have you measured the diameter of a few samples of those bullets?Kind of sounds like maybe some aren't what they're supposed to be.-Mike

Try anywhere from 4.2 to 4.5 of BE. Always works well.

I run 4.2 with the 185s

They mic very consistently .452 and crimp is .468 (I intended .469 but somehow they came out .468).  Seated to COAL 1.119.  Thank you.  Will changing powder make that big of a difference? Or could it, I should say.

185 JHP should be closer to 0.451 and your OAL should be closer to 1.20. Try 4.2 to 4.4 of VV310 and WLP primer. crimp .470 or .469 depending on brass.

Use 3.85 gr VV 310 for 200 LSW at 1.239 OAL.

Check your scope screws and mounts, and guide rod if you have one.

Greetings,

Do not crimp the rounds to prevent mangling the bullet.

Use a taper crimp die to just remove the bell of the case.

Look at factory ammo. They do not crimp.

Cheers,

Dave

Thank you everyone.  At much longer COAL I was getting some failures to feed, not many but a few.  I use the Redding separate taper crimp die so I'll back that off a bit. I can't find VV310 but I'll look again.  Must be a virus is good for the reloading business.

I believe the Magnus 185 jhp's are relabled Zero bullets. an excellent and reliable bullet.

3.8-4.6 BE is a reputable range for these.
If that's not working, look at something gun related,

CLARIFICATION my COAL is 1.19 NOT 1.119  didn't see my error in posting

Is it variability in your testing method? I believe l was using 5.0 of wst but have to check.

I used Nosler 185 JHP and 5.0 grains of WST and a Winchester primer, OAL 1.24 Worked up to this load, 4.8 looked good and 5.0 was the answer for me. When I was an active shooter there were 4 wad guns in my safe and this load worked in them all.
Tom Ginovsky

Thanks Tom.  I'm wondering now if maybe the butt of the gun was hitting the bag or if it was technique.  I'm not quite sure what to do to test groups without a Ransom rest.  I was using two hands supporting my wrists on a fore end rifle rest.  I have a good number of rounds left and rechecked crimps and they're about .468 a few were .467 and .469 and ONE was .470.  I'm wondering since I just finger tightened the die did it work loose over the course of the 50 rounds I did??  Being all new brass I don't think it's case variability.  I shot 20 of the 50 in that 4.60 load. I have no idea to know what order they were crimped in.  I'm going to sort by crimp and shoot the rest, but I wonder if a few thou in crimps makes that much difference.

I really don't believe the range of crimp your stating will have a detrimental affect on accuracy.
With that load shooting X at 25 yds, I think your technique is the question at 50.
sometimes you just have to go on faith. 

How do's it shoot standing at 50 yds? whether 2-hand or one.
also can try a 2 handed barricade support.

One hand at 50 horrific but I'm out of practice.  Two hands at 50 as stated above bad and I'm wondering if it was technique or the butt hitting the bag.  I was not in the most comfortable position trying to work with what I had.  The other thing is maybe since I usually shoot one hand, I was totally abandoning trigger technique with the focus on keeping the damn thing steady.  I'm going to shoot again this morning and post what I find.

4.5 to 4.6 grains of Alliant Bullseye works very well. I got this load from Dave Salyer, who with Al Dorman, developed the famous "Marine Load". This gives me about 829 fps out of my Kart barreled "Heavy Slide". The Marines settled upon VV 310 gun powder at the time.

For your technique, maybe this video can give you some ideas.

https://youtu.be/YYPLoomZu0Q

If your pistol holds the X at 25, it very likely holds the 10 (at least) at 50.  So there is a much higher probability there is a technique issue at 50.

185 gr JHP Nosler / Remington Golden Sabre / Zero over 4.20 N310, WLP, 1.22", 0.370" or less taper crimp.

AP

I think most of it was technique.  I'm going to try to post some photos, these targets were shot a few minutes ago.  I isolated my wrist/hand/butt of the gun completely from the rest and took more time.  The notes on the targets should explain what I used.  There's the Magnus with Bullseye and WST 4.5.  I'd appreciate any feedback.  These are all 50 yards exactly.  To my untrained and pretty inexperienced eye it looks like WST 4.5 will work?  The tighter one, God knows what happened, some type of divine intervention.  I'm not sure it's worth chasing Bullseye powder?  I'm not sure how much I am able to wring out of this, and I might have time better spend shooting and practicing.

Also, it's a VERY small sample size but you'll see the crimp difference on the 4.5WST. Also clearly I'm not zeroed but wasn't too concerned with that today.

Are you using iron sights or a red dot ?

Red dot.  I can't imagine shooting anything close to this with iron.  Cripes I can't see anything anymore : (

Geez, I’d load the 4.5 with .469 crimp
And go back to sleep.

james r chapman wrote:Geez, I’d load the 4.5 with .469 crimp
And go back to sleep.

+1

Actually i run 4.4 of WST. and a .471 crimp

Thank you everyone.  Yeah, I'd say I'm probably loading up some of the 4.5 and ordering more Magnus bullets.  Oh...and working on my trigger finger one handed.  I won't be able to blame the gun now.