Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
+9
james r chapman
TonyH
DA/SA
jonathan.lane
mpolans
301bruce
kjanracing
JKR
mikemyers
13 posters
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Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
I bought my Nelson kit a year or so ago, with the idea that shooting both 45 and 22 from the "same gun - grip, trigger, and so on) would help me improve my shooting with both. The Nelson turned out to have a defect in the chamber, and after none of the "fixes" worked, Larry suggested I return it, and if they couldn't get it to work, they would replace it. Long story, but it was "something" in the chamber making the chamber too tight, and they replaced it. So, as of this writing I've got a brand new Nelson kit still sitting in the box.
I've got two 45's for Bullseye, an older Springfield 1911 made in Brazil, and a Caspian, both turned into bullseye guns by Dave Salyer. Of the two, I prefer the Springfield. Long ago, having read about issues with mounting a Nelson on a Springfield, there were concerns about the position of the magazine in the frame, and as I recall, one option was to install a special magazine release which fixed things. Not being sure what to do, I got to try the Nelson on both the Caspian, and on my Baer. (It works fine on both the Caspian and the Baer, which leads to other options I'm not currently considering.)
Fast forward to today. If my memory is correct, I can insert one of the plastic magazines into the Springfield, without making any changes yet to the Springfield, and I can then tell what if anything needs to be changed. I think I remember that I need to only buy a different magazine release.
My questions include:
There is no hurry - I will be back to shooting 45 in the Springfield once I put my Baer away for a while, and I am enjoying my High Standard X-Series for 22.
My information on this mostly comes from "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpPMFm5ubM" - fast forward to 14 minutes into the video.
I've got two 45's for Bullseye, an older Springfield 1911 made in Brazil, and a Caspian, both turned into bullseye guns by Dave Salyer. Of the two, I prefer the Springfield. Long ago, having read about issues with mounting a Nelson on a Springfield, there were concerns about the position of the magazine in the frame, and as I recall, one option was to install a special magazine release which fixed things. Not being sure what to do, I got to try the Nelson on both the Caspian, and on my Baer. (It works fine on both the Caspian and the Baer, which leads to other options I'm not currently considering.)
Fast forward to today. If my memory is correct, I can insert one of the plastic magazines into the Springfield, without making any changes yet to the Springfield, and I can then tell what if anything needs to be changed. I think I remember that I need to only buy a different magazine release.
My questions include:
- a) Is what I just wrote correct?
- b) How can I tell if the magazine is or isn't located as it should be, and
- c) What parts should I buy to make things work?
There is no hurry - I will be back to shooting 45 in the Springfield once I put my Baer away for a while, and I am enjoying my High Standard X-Series for 22.
My information on this mostly comes from "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpPMFm5ubM" - fast forward to 14 minutes into the video.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Mike,
A high mag release was often the cure for a Marvel but is not needed for a Nelson. Put the conversion on the frame and lock the slide back. Insert the magazine while looking at the ejector. When the mag is locked in it shouldn’t be pushing the ejector up. If it is, the slide will probably not close. Unless your Springfield has had a high mag catch installed, the conversion should work.
If your Springfield has the lock on the mainspring housing and the original mainspring, that will most likely need to be changed. Conversions run best on an 18 to 20 lb. mainspring. I don’t think older guns like yours had this ILS system but I’m not positive.
Put it on, take it to the range and see if it works.
Good luck Mike.
JKR
A high mag release was often the cure for a Marvel but is not needed for a Nelson. Put the conversion on the frame and lock the slide back. Insert the magazine while looking at the ejector. When the mag is locked in it shouldn’t be pushing the ejector up. If it is, the slide will probably not close. Unless your Springfield has had a high mag catch installed, the conversion should work.
If your Springfield has the lock on the mainspring housing and the original mainspring, that will most likely need to be changed. Conversions run best on an 18 to 20 lb. mainspring. I don’t think older guns like yours had this ILS system but I’m not positive.
Put it on, take it to the range and see if it works.
Good luck Mike.
JKR
JKR- Posts : 763
Join date : 2015-01-13
Location : Northern Wisconsin
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Wow, you're fast - you're replaying before the (virtual) ink even dried!
Nope, no lock on mainspring housing.
I'll try what you suggested this evening.
Nope, no lock on mainspring housing.
I'll try what you suggested this evening.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Mine worked great on my stock RO. The Nelson came with 2 recoil springs, one was lighter for the heavier ILS main spring.
kjanracing- Posts : 410
Join date : 2015-02-17
Location : Arvada, Colorado
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
My Nelson is mounted on my 70 series Gold Cup frame. The Nelson magazines did push the ejector up until I trimmed the notch on the magazines so they sit lower in the frame. I also have several GSG mags that all work without modification.
301bruce- Posts : 17
Join date : 2017-08-10
Location : Maryland
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Before folks start doing this, recommend modifying the mag release rather than notches in the magazine. Now the mags may only work on that gun, hurting resale value of the kit and mags if you ever decide to sell it. Better to modify the cheaper part like a $25 mag release, rather than several magazines at $25/each that will now possibly require a special mag release at $25 (or more).301bruce wrote:My Nelson is mounted on my 70 series Gold Cup frame. The Nelson magazines did push the ejector up until I trimmed the notch on the magazines so they sit lower in the frame. I also have several GSG mags that all work without modification.
mpolans- Posts : 606
Join date : 2016-05-27
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
I agree. My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another. The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction. I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well. With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.
Last edited by jonathan.lane on 8/31/2020, 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar correction)
jonathan.lane- Posts : 28
Join date : 2018-06-29
Location : Wendell, NC
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Do you have any before and after photos of the magazine release? I can't visualize what is being done to it.jonathan.lane wrote:I agree. My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another. The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction. I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well. With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
The shelf that engages the notch in the magazine is being filed down to allow the magazine to engage at a lower point.
DA/SA- Posts : 1506
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 68
Location : Southeast Florida
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
So, you're saying if I look into my gun, the surface that touches the magazine is what you're calling "the shelf"?
Will do so this afternoon.
If I buy a new magazine disconnect to modify, does it also need to be "fitted" to the gun?
Will do so this afternoon.
If I buy a new magazine disconnect to modify, does it also need to be "fitted" to the gun?
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
DA/SA- Posts : 1506
Join date : 2017-10-09
Age : 68
Location : Southeast Florida
spursnguns likes this post
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
mikemyers wrote:Do you have any before and after photos of the magazine release? I can't visualize what is being done to it.jonathan.lane wrote:I agree. My Nelson conversion worked on one gun, but pushed the extractor up on another. The slide dragged quite a bit and the second gun would malfunction. I bought a spare magazine release and trimmed the shelf a little with a file until the conversion/magazines functioned well. With the modified mag release, the conversion now works well on all my 1911s.
The red arrow points to the shelf that jonathan.lane refers to above. Like he says, buy a spare (do not alter magazines) and lower that shelf till the mag lip barely touches the bottom of the ejector on the Nelson. Obviously, this only applies if the magazine pushes up on the ejector enough that the slide drags and retards movement causing return to battery issues. I had to do that on my SRO for the Nelson, but luckily the lowered mag release shelf causes no issues when converted back to 45 ACP with normal magazines, so I don't have switch the release out with an unaltered one. Hope the pic helps....
TonyH- Posts : 802
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
+1.... . Obviously...Maybe not?DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
TonyH- Posts : 802
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie
spursnguns likes this post
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Sorry, I don't do things that way.DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
I would want to check out everything ahead of time, and do a good bit of dry-firing, before I would go to the range and shoot.
It's just the way I do things. In this case, I haven't even taken the Nelson out of the box yet. That will happen later this week.
I would never shoot it unless/until I thought it was working properly.
Now that I think I understand what's going on with the magazine disconnect, I would want to know it's functioning properly.
Maybe I'm just being silly that way, but it's how I've learned to do anything with a gun.
Extreme exaggeration: Better to verify that a barrel is clear, before shooting.
I think I know what you all mean (which was NOT true a few days ago). Maybe I'll take things apart tomorrow, just to check this out.
Thanks for all the advice. The odds are that the kit will drop onto the gun, and I'll be able to shoot with it on Wednesday.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
You will not actually know if it actually works, or works well, till you fire it repeatedly with varied ammunition.....mikemyers wrote:Sorry, I don't do things that way.DA/SA wrote:Why not just shoot it as it is and see how it works before you start modifying things?
I would want to check out everything ahead of time, and do a good bit of dry-firing, before I would go to the range and shoot.
It's just the way I do things. In this case, I haven't even taken the Nelson out of the box yet. That will happen later this week.
I would never shoot it unless/until I thought it was working properly.
Now that I think I understand what's going on with the magazine disconnect, I would want to know it's functioning properly.
Maybe I'm just being silly that way, but it's how I've learned to do anything with a gun.
Extreme exaggeration: Better to verify that a barrel is clear, before shooting.
I think I know what you all mean (which was NOT true a few days ago). Maybe I'll take things apart tomorrow, just to check this out.
Thanks for all the advice. The odds are that the kit will drop onto the gun, and I'll be able to shoot with it on Wednesday.
I have pretty simplistic thinking....assemble the darn thing, run the slide a manually a few times just to check for basic functionality, wipe the oil out of the new barrel and then go shoot it and check for reliability. I don't go into deep analysis and ponder all the "what ifs" unless they actually occur and need resolve....to each how own, I suppose. BTW, its not a magazine disconnect...it's simply a magazine catch.
TonyH- Posts : 802
Join date : 2018-08-06
Location : Utah's Dixie
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Magazine CATCH. I'm all too often getting my mords wixed up. Sorry. Need to put brain in gear, before putting fingers in motion.
About a year ago, I had problems getting the Nelson set up. Time to delete that from my brain. This time around everything is going fine.
I installed the Nelson on my Springfield this morning. As far as I can tell, it's all working fine. I need to mount a sight, then try it out at the range tomorrow.
I guess I over complicate everything, maybe a bad habit from too many years of engineering, where it was important to figure out all the "what if's" ahead of time.
About a year ago, I had problems getting the Nelson set up. Time to delete that from my brain. This time around everything is going fine.
I installed the Nelson on my Springfield this morning. As far as I can tell, it's all working fine. I need to mount a sight, then try it out at the range tomorrow.
I guess I over complicate everything, maybe a bad habit from too many years of engineering, where it was important to figure out all the "what if's" ahead of time.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Engineers don’t waste time on ‘what if’s’
Maintenance personnel do.
Maintenance personnel do.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6372
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
JKR and lakemurrayman like this post
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
People that try fixing a problem before there is a problem or an indication of a problem ARE the primary cause of most avoidable problems that should never have become a problem in the first place.
In other words, don't mess with anything unless you are absolutely, positively sure you have a good reason to do so AND you're pretty sure you're not going to make the situation worse.
CR
In other words, don't mess with anything unless you are absolutely, positively sure you have a good reason to do so AND you're pretty sure you're not going to make the situation worse.
CR
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
james r chapman, JKR, lablover, mikemyers, DA/SA and lakemurrayman like this post
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
+1 and they most likely don't understand the operation/relationship of what they are "fixing". Kind of like mechanics that replace parts until the car runs but then the same problem shows up weeks later.CR10X wrote:People that try fixing a problem before there is a problem or an indication of a problem ARE the primary cause of most avoidable problems that should never have become a problem in the first place.
In other words, don't mess with anything unless you are absolutely, positively sure you have a good reason to do so AND you're pretty sure you're not going to make the situation worse.
CR
- Dave
dronning- Posts : 2581
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 71
Location : Lakeville, MN
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
What is considered an "old" S/A 1911A1?
I have a S/A from the mid 80's. It's an NM serial number with the two piece barrel. It have had some gun Smith upgrades. My Nelson is a current model and works flawlessly on that receiver improving my Gallery B/E scores by about 15%!
Nelson/ Fu
sion
Smiles,
[url=https://servimg.com/view/20256587/2][/url]
This is the Nelson on the S/A receiver!
The trigger breaks at 3.5#'s!
I have a S/A from the mid 80's. It's an NM serial number with the two piece barrel. It have had some gun Smith upgrades. My Nelson is a current model and works flawlessly on that receiver improving my Gallery B/E scores by about 15%!
Nelson/ Fu
sion
Smiles,
[url=https://servimg.com/view/20256587/2][/url]
This is the Nelson on the S/A receiver!
The trigger breaks at 3.5#'s!
Last edited by jjfitch on 9/2/2020, 7:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
jjfitch- Posts : 142
Join date : 2012-08-31
Age : 77
Location : The Beautiful Pacific Northwest
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=241237jjfitch wrote:What is considered an "old" S/A 1911A1?......
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Could never get one of those two piece barrels to group at 50 yards.jjfitch wrote:It's an NM serial number with the two piece barrel.
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Got to the range this morning, and started to sight in the Nelson. The problem was that half the time, the hammer apparently started to "follow" the slide when the slide was returning, so this is where the hammer ended up:
I spoke to Larry and Kevin, and they said the hammer was "following". First time I've heard that term. Contributing factors might be the Sear Spring (one of the three springs might need re-adjustment), "harmonics" which are causing the hammer hooks to come undone, and maybe the main spring being too weak.
My plan for tomorrow is to move the Nelson kit to one of my other 45's (Baer or Caspian), put the 45 slide parts back on the Springfield, and find out what works and what doesn't - Springfield set up for 45, and either Baer or Caspian set up with the Nelson for 22.
To make the weight of the Springfield/Nelson the same as the weight of the Springfield set up for 45, I mounted an Aimpoint 9000 SC to the Nelson. I thought this might have something to do with it, but Larry and Kevin tell me the weight could not cause the "following". The weight is now the same, regardless of whether it's configured for 22 or 45.
Any other tests I could do tomorrow to help track this down, or suggestions as to what might fix it?
I spoke to Larry and Kevin, and they said the hammer was "following". First time I've heard that term. Contributing factors might be the Sear Spring (one of the three springs might need re-adjustment), "harmonics" which are causing the hammer hooks to come undone, and maybe the main spring being too weak.
My plan for tomorrow is to move the Nelson kit to one of my other 45's (Baer or Caspian), put the 45 slide parts back on the Springfield, and find out what works and what doesn't - Springfield set up for 45, and either Baer or Caspian set up with the Nelson for 22.
To make the weight of the Springfield/Nelson the same as the weight of the Springfield set up for 45, I mounted an Aimpoint 9000 SC to the Nelson. I thought this might have something to do with it, but Larry and Kevin tell me the weight could not cause the "following". The weight is now the same, regardless of whether it's configured for 22 or 45.
Any other tests I could do tomorrow to help track this down, or suggestions as to what might fix it?
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Have you tweaked your sear/hammer lately.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6372
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: Old Springfield Armory 1911 A1 Wad Gun + Nelson Kit
Jim, I wouldn't know how - that's way over my comfort level.
I've never had this gun apart other than for cleaning.
......added later - I wouldn't mind working on it, if I felt it was safe.
Plan B is to send it all back to Dave, who can also "freshen it up" as a wad gun.
I've never had this gun apart other than for cleaning.
......added later - I wouldn't mind working on it, if I felt it was safe.
Plan B is to send it all back to Dave, who can also "freshen it up" as a wad gun.
mikemyers- Posts : 4236
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 80
Location : South Florida, and India
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