Frustrated with reloading 9mm

I shoot a Ruger SR1911 Target 9mm.  I have tried several types of commercial ammunition through it and found four (Winchester Target, Wolf Performance, Fiocchi Target Max, and Speer Lawman) that will average under a two-inch group at 25-yards. (These rounds vary in bullet weight, velocity, and overall length.) Due to the ammunition shortage, I started reloading this past spring with a Lee Turret Press loaded with a set of four Lee dies set in accordance to the directions.  My problem is I have not been able to duplicate anything close to the factory ammo for accuracy.  In some cases, I will shoot a group of three rounds to have two holes touch and the third round two or three inches off to the side.  Here is my process:  The used cases spend time in the tumbler.  They are sorted by headstamp.  They are deprimed and the primer pocket is cleaned.  A new primer is pressed in.  Each and every powder charge from the powder measure is double checked on a digital scale and only the exact tenth of a grain is allowed.  The bullet is set in accordance with tech data.  A batch of 18 is made to check for accuracy.  I have tried using three different powders: Unique, Titegroup, and CFE.  I have tried FMJ bullets in different brands and weights in an effort to duplicate the commercial rounds.  I have tried a few dozen different combinations with no great success.  I get the feeling there is one or two small details that when corrected will make all the difference but I need help figuring it out.

As a starting point for loading accurate 9mm I would start with trying to duplicate the Atlanta Arms Ammo 115 XTP loading. These are very accurate and used by many pistol teams and IDPA, Bianchi Cup and Steel Challenge competitors.  Every 9mm pistol I have shoots them very well a couple pistols give me BE accuracy at 25 yards. 

115 XTP bullet
1075 FPS
OAL 1.075

I have that bullet on hand and will give it a try.  Is it normal to have tried so many combinations and not found anything close?

[quote="REConley"]As a starting point - Atlanta Arms Ammo
115 XTP bullet
1075 FPS
OAL 1.075[/quote]
I agree that the AA Elite is excellent match ammo. But, like almost all of the 115 ammo I've tried, it is pretty hot, with a velocity of around 1,150fps (or even 1,200fps). Several threads here and on other forums suggest that this high velocity is needed in typical 1:16 twist 9mm barrels.

I found all of the 115xtp loads to be too hot and snappy for me in my 1911 9mm.

I now use Zero 147JHP over 4.3 Power Pistol for 25 yards in my SIG P210 (OK, it has a slower twist barrel than my 1911) and find it much more manageable for TF/RF.

The Zero .355 115 gr JHP Conical bullet is one of the best. it is the gold standard for NRA Action Pistol shooters who have to "buy" their bullets. Some prefer the .355 125 gr JHP Conical. Both are excellent. The Hornady XTP are as well. Not convinced that the Hornady Action Pistol bullet is quite as good, but it is still good.

In 9mm I use 4.3 gr of WSF behind the Zero 115 JHP Conical with an oal of 1.080". It is 2" or less at 50 yds out of my, Steve Huff built, AXI 9mm. This is a very light load, but is accurate and it cycles my gun, which has a lightened slide, and Aimpoint H1 on a Microrail. You may need to run a few tenths to half a grain more, depending on spring and slide weight etc, if a slide mounted optic.

VV N330 is supposed to be the cat's meow for 9mm. I have not tried it. WSF, I had, and it is of a similar burn rate. I have also used W231 and WST with very good results in 9mm.

REConley wrote:BIG SNIP

115 XTP bullet
1075 FPS
OAL 1.075

I found 4 grains of Titegroup with a Hornady HAP 115  gives me  just over 2" @ 50 yards in my Dan Wesson PM-9.  
This happens to be AV 1075 fps.  I was using the same bullet with 5 grains of CFE Pistol, but the Titegroup shoots smaller groups with better ES.

HAP is an XTP with out the scallops.  Right now I can' t find them any where.  

I am using Missouri Bullets 125 SWC over 3.5 Bullseye. I don't know the velocity, but at 25 yards it shoots great.  I don't know if your gun will feed these or not.  

David

RN jacketed bullets performance for me has been very poor. Conical seem to work better. AA ammo at 1075 is reasonable in speed and power. Recall jkt loads USED to be 5 or more of power pistol running at 1325 with a lot of recoil. I like 4.5 231 at 1050 or so with zero 115

Also loading lead required a larger expander plug and Federal brass as they didn't taper in the case which damaged the bullet.

Seems lke we have a new forum design here...

I thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions which I will try. The commercial ammo I have tried and my 1911 likes is round nose solid point which I have been trying to recreate.  (Even cheap Wolf Performance 115 gn averages 1.807 inches.) I would consider anything that will shoot under two inches at 25-yards a success at this point.  I'm wondering if there is a problem with technique.  Any pointers in production or stories about changes you made that made all the difference?

I also use Lee dies. I do put a little taper crimp on the seated bullet with the last die. Some say it is not needed. I disagree but that is my opinion. My rounds all group under 2" at 25 yds.

I put a light tamper crimp on my ammunition as well.  Thanks for the tip!

A lot of the action guys are loading their 9mm down.  Like 2.5=Titegroup and a 147 bullet.  The velocity they get will JUST make minimum power factor, but it seems to be about 760-850 fps.  That is almost the velocity of a 38 Special Wadcutter.   One other thing, for bullseye work I would avoid  plated bullets...

Thank you.

Bruce, tell us about your method for testing.  Are you shooting offhand or off a bench rest? How many rounds are in your group? You mentioned you load 18 rounds. Are all of those fired into one group?

What bullets are you using?

In general, round nose bullets don't shoot as accurately as flat nose (FN, JHP) bullets. But it does depend on the bullet and load.

I have a scope mount and a pistol scope. I shoot from a solid rest at 25 yards. I shoot groups of three rounds, measure the size, cover the holes, and shoot three more rounds repeating until the ammo is gone. I have tried different sized round nose, flat cone, and Hornady XTP. Every test goes into my lig book for future reference.

What is the mount attached to, the frame? What mount and what scope? 

Which specific bullets are you using? It matters a lot. 

I suggest you drop the 3-shot group method. Shoot all 18 rounds into one group. Check out this article to understand why;

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group/

I went the whole test everything route. I was also testing two different pistols at the same time. Both pistols were 9mm. I found out quickly that what worked for one was not the best load for the other. Another way of saying that my pet load might suck for you. I did discover a bullet that worked best for both pistols. Or maybe I should say a bullet type. All my best groups were shot with 115gr JHP bullets. My testing techniques were not able to distinguish a difference between Nosler, Zero, XTP or HAP. Those are all real bullets and not plated garbage. Below are two of my test targets. You can see I found the bullet/load I found worked for the 952 and still use it today. The RO was a little more difficult. I found a load that was almost good enough but still had some vertical stringing. I eventually replaced the slide stop and solved that. While I was doing that I also changed it over to 38 Super and turned it into a tack driver (but that's a different story)

I concur with S148.  If your shooting from a hand held rested gun and not a gun in a machine rest, shoot groups with a large number of shots.  20 or so at a time.  You WILL get fliers with this method, but what you are looking for is a large blob of shots that is smaller than the 10 ring by a good margin.  What this does is give you a better idea of your gun and load’s true potential.

Wobbley wrote:I concur with S148.  If your shooting from a hand held rested gun and not a gun in a machine rest, shoot groups with a large number of shots.  

I recommend it even if shooting from a Ransom Rest.

Here's what I have for shooting.  My SR1911 9mm Target is stainless steel.  I had my local gunsmith mount a stainless rail from Brownells to the frame in front of the trigger guard.  It's tapped and screwed together.  I found a low budget scope mount on Amazon along with a basic 2X Centerpoint Pistol scope.  I know this is substandard compared to what you guys and gals use.  In my defense, this setup has verified sub-two inch groups at different points over the summer.  Equipment upgrades as the hobby and budget dictate.  Since I started reloading last spring, bullets have been hard to come by.  I have tried: Berry 115 gn and147 gn jacketed rd nose, RMR 147 gn and 124 gn FMJ flat point cone, Hornady 115 gn XTP.  My top three homeloads are: 3.8 gns of Titegroup with 124 gn RMR flat cone averaging 2.774 inch groups, 5.4 gns of Unique with Berry's 115 gn round nose copper plated averaging 2.698 inches, and 3.5 gns of Titegroup and an RMR 147 gn flat point cone averaging 2.597 inches.  My best commercial load is Winchester Target having a 115 gn FMJ, 1190 fps, and a COL of 1.167.

What Wobbley says strikes a cord.  I WILL get fliers.  How do I perceive them?  Sometimes in my three-shot groups, I will get two overlapping holes and the third hole is three inches to the side.  That's the part that just kills the numbers.  I don't WANT that to be normal..

I did read the article on shooting large numbers of rounds to determine accuracy a couple times.  It does make sense.  I have been using round stickers to cover over holes in the target.  Using the same target, I will use my old method and when I'm out of ammo turn the target over to compare the difference.  Should be interesting.

Forgot to mention that the Winchester Target ammo averaged 1.312 inches at 25 yards. This is the average of six three-shot groups with the solid rest and scope. I'm not a competitive level shooter but I believe this suggests the pistol is in good shape.

Bruce1123 wrote:Forgot to mention that the Winchester Target ammo averaged 1.312 inches at 25 yards.  This is the average of six three-shot groups with the solid rest and scope. 

Okay, but since small groups happen by chance (as stated in the article), that number could be misleading. The group size with ALL the shots is the one to use. You could try it again with the Winchester ammo and see what the aggregate group size is.

I do now understand about the chance, but it is what I have at the moment.  I have more of the ammo so I'll try it out more next time I can get to the range.  And I greatly appreciate yours and everyone else's thoughts.

We wish you the best. Accuracy is fickle, even when testing in a Ransom Rest. I've learned to use more shots in my groups to have more confidence that the gun/ammo is consistently accurate, or not. It takes more time, and a lot more MONEY! Egad this sport is expensive!