Questions Re SA Custom Shop 1911 Bullseye Wad Gun

First topic message reminder :

I've been looking at the Springfield Armory 1911 Wad Gun built in SA's Custom Shop.  Here are my questions: (1) If I were to buy their gun, is it likely to need additional gunsmith work, or would I be good to go for Bullseye competition purposes?  (2)  If I were to buy a milspec, or a Range Officer, and hand it over to a gunsmith to give me similar features, should I expect the total cost to be more or less than this pistol, which has an MSRP of right at $2600,

SA's advertising about the gun (what you get) is as follows:

• Custom fit slide to national match frame
  
• Custom fit match barrel & bushing
  
• Polished feed ramp & throated barrel
  
• Springfield Custom tool steel match hammer & sear
  
• Fitted speed trigger w/custom tuned 3.5 lb. trigger pull
  
• Tuned for total reliability
  
• Lowered & flared ejection port
  
• Tuned & polished extractor
  
• Full length recoil spring assembly
  
• Custom fit beavertail grip safety
  
• Custom fit single side extended thumb safety
  

• Frame or slide mounted rail scope mount
  
• Precision checkered front strap, 20LPI
  
• Beveled & polished magazine well
  
• Precision checkered flat mainspring housing
  
• Checkered cocobolo grips
  
• Premium Black T finish complete
  
• Slide mounted scope mount
  
• 2 magazines
  

Here's a photo of the pistol:



A little bit about me.  I'm retired and turn 71 in Nov.  When I was in my late 20s or early 30s I shot some bullseye with a club in Indiana.  I only shot rim and center fire, but never bought a 1911 .45.  I had a blast, and even did some reloading with my father-in-law's reloading gear.  I shot in the mid 80s.  Occasionally, I did a little better.  Unfortunately, I didn't get a whole lot of guidance on how to improve, so it was hit & miss (pun intended) on developing good habits and getting rid of the bad ones.  I bought a Mod 41 (long barrel) and M52-2. All my shooting was done with them.

I moved for new job and fell out of shooting.  Literally decades went by without my even picking up my guns.  Fortunately, they were put away clean and well oiled.  They've held up well over the years and will probably always shoot far better than I do.

In the last few months, I decided to get back into bullseye style shooting.  I had a supply of 40 year old ammo laying around, so I hit an indoor range with 25 yard lanes, and gave it a tumble.  Not unexpectedly, I didn't go great, although I hit the slow fire target more often than I missed completely.  The scores weren't worth tallying.  Part of my problem was old eyes not getting along well with iron sights.  So, I decided to try a Matchdot II for each pistol.  I bought a new barrel for the 41, since mine wasn't drilled for a rail and I wanted to keep the original barrel pristine.  I got a rail from BME for my M52, which attaches in place of the rear sight.  Very slick setup.  I got lucky; neither red dot has negative magnification.  Anyway, they made a big difference.  Now, I'm shooting in the upper 70s to mid 80s on the 25 yd slow fire target, which is significantly better than where I started.  I'm not missing the target anymore.   My wobble is still pretty bad, but getting better with time and practice.

I've been reading up on and practicing the fundamentals.  I need to get into a dryfire routine, but competing priorities have been getting in the way.  And yes, I know I need more dedication to training.

Finally, I have NO interest in shooting CMP.  My eyes are not going to let me get anywhere with CMP, and the red dot already has me spoiled.  Also, I'm not in the market for 2 .45s.  

Thank you for your help,

Gary

Olde Pilot wrote:radjag: Per rule 3.18, mat could be questioned/disallowed by officials as being beyond spirit of the rules as all competitors would not enjoy the same "advantage." Probably want to get OK before match start.

Wait till they get a look at the big propane heater I set up in the spot I'm shooting. Of course everyone gets warmed up a little by it. There were actually several of them on the line at the last "cold toes and runny nose" match I shot.

Olde Pilot wrote:radjag: Per rule 3.18, mat could be questioned/disallowed by officials as being beyond spirit of the rules as all competitors would not enjoy the same "advantage." Probably want to get OK before match start.

 

Maybe buy some roomier shoes and cut the mat in the shape of the insoles????  Officials wouldn't question, unless they make everyone remove their shoes.  On the other hand, the question of unfair advantage doesn't go away, does it?  Do I see an ethics question and/or argument unfolding?

GME wrote:Here's a photo of the pistol:

I have a very similar gun, built by Dave Salyer.  I was looking at your photo, and what Dave did/does to the ejection port is very noticeable.  How important is this?  I never really thought much about it - it's just one of the things Dave does to provide an excellent gun at a reasonable price.  Dave is very fast, and does great work.  He explained most of what he did to my gun, but I doubt I'm good enough to take advantage of everything he did.  It's also interesting that I'm the third owner of this gun, and the last owner used it as his practice gun while building his own gun.  Despite all the use, Dave tells me it's fine just the way it is, no need for any work to bring it back to spec.   I know Jon and KC here in the forum also make excellent guns, but Dave goes out of his way to make his guns affordable.

mikemyers wrote:

GME wrote:Here's a photo of the pistol:

I have a very similar gun, built by Dave Salyer.  I was looking at your photo, and what Dave did/does to the ejection port is very noticeable.  How important is this?  I never really thought much about it - it's just one of the things Dave does to provide an excellent gun at a reasonable price.  Dave is very fast, and does great work.  He explained most of what he did to my gun, but I doubt I'm good enough to take advantage of everything he did.  It's also interesting that I'm the third owner of this gun, and the last owner used it as his practice gun while building his own gun.  Despite all the use, Dave tells me it's fine just the way it is, no need for any work to bring it back to spec.   I know Jon and KC here in the forum also make excellent guns, but Dave goes out of his way to make his guns affordable.

Did yours start its life as a Range Officer?  Looks like it might have.  

As I understand it, the original military 1911s ejected pretty much straight up.  Lowering the port makes it eject out the side.

I see that Dave Salyer is building pistols for an outfit called J T Custom Guns, https://precisionshootingmatches.com/competitors/jt-custom-guns/.  You have to call for the price.  3-4 week turnaround.  They lifted the photo from the SA website for their ad.  

Gary

GME wrote:
Did yours start its life as a Range Officer?  Looks like it might have.  
As I understand it, the original military 1911s ejected pretty much straight up.  Lowering the port makes it eject out the side.

Gary,
I called Springfield Armory.  
My Springfield started as a "GI Model" (whatever that means).
The date of manufacture was October 5, 2009.

So, from what you wrote, without the port modification, these guns eject straight up?
Since it was going to get a rail and red dot sight, is that the reason the side port needed to be opened up?

I believe lowering the ejector port and tuning the extractor and ejector allow ejection to the side consistently.

mikemyers wrote:
I called Springfield Armory.  
My Springfield started as a "GI Model" (whatever that means).
The date of manufacture was October 5, 2009.

So, from what you wrote, without the port modification, these guns eject straight up?
Since it was going to get a rail and red dot sight, is that the reason the side port needed to be opened up?

I'm guessing GI Model is the same as what they call Mil-spec, i.e., the true military version without any bells or whistles.

Your research raises an interesting question, one that's probably been asked and answered dozens times here on the forum.  If you are going to have a gunsmith build a 1911 for bullseye, does it make more sense to start with a mil-spec (the cheapest model) or does it make more sense to move up the chain and use something like a Range Officer as the base gun.  Same question for a Colt - basic pistol or Gold Cup for the base.  I suppose any descent pistol will do for a base,  but at the end of the day, is there a net savings or other advantage for using one over the other?  

Since I'm looking at options, the question is definitely relevant to this topic.  And, like most, I don't have unlimited resources.   Sad, but I have the basic skills to build a pistol, and a few of the basic tools, i.e., a mill, files and the like, but don't have the knowledge or experience to pull it off.  If I wanted to learn to do a respectable job, I'd take Bob Marvel's gunsmithing class where you actually build a .45 BE pistol under his supervision.   At $4000 tuition, plus some tools, plus food & lodging for a week , which includes a completed pistol, ($5000 all in???) sounds like a descent deal, especially for someone who wants to build a few for others.  I'm retired and am happy to stay that way.  A $5000 pistol, even a truly excellent one, is out of my price range.  Besides, no money left over for a Pardini .22. (LOL)

IMHO. The smart move is to start with a SA Range Officer that already has the adjustable rear target sight and have the Bullseye smith fit a rail so that the rail/sight co-exist. Then, if you want to use the gun for EIC Service Pistol at some point it is simply a matter of pulling the rail and changing the sear spring to increase trigger pull weight.

Dave Salyer certainly knows how to do that, he did a similar job for me on a SIG 1911 9mm early last year.

I notice that new SARO's are now going for close to $900 on GB - quite an increase from a year ago.

radjag wrote:IMHO. The smart move is to start with a SA Range Officer that already has the adjustable rear target sight and have the Bullseye smith fit a rail so that the rail/sight co-exist.

Jon Eulette sells a rail that does this.

GME wrote:

mikemyers wrote:So, from what you wrote, without the port modification, these guns eject straight up?
Since it was going to get a rail and red dot sight, is that the reason the side port needed to be opened up?

I'm still curious about that question - if I read this discussion properly, without the extension, ejected rounds may hit the red dot sight.  Is that why the ejection port (must be??) opened up?

For that matter, does the Range Officer RO come with this modification already done?

Dave Salyer told me the steel used in those Brazilian made parts was excellent.  At the time, while I knew he lowered the ejection port, I didn't know why that was necessary.

mikemyers wrote:

GME wrote:

mikemyers wrote:So, from what you wrote, without the port modification, these guns eject straight up?
Since it was going to get a rail and red dot sight, is that the reason the side port needed to be opened up?

I'm still curious about that question - if I read this discussion properly, without the extension, ejected rounds may hit the red dot sight.  Is that why the ejection port (must be??) opened up?

For that matter, does the Range Officer RO come with this modification already done?

Dave Salyer told me the steel used in those Brazilian made parts was excellent.  At the time, while I knew he lowered the ejection port, I didn't know why that was necessary.

The reason you lower and flare an ejection port is additional clearance. A tuned ejector will toss the brass out the side, opening the ejection port helps with overall reliability, less obstruction for the brass to hit on the way out. 

For what it is worth the ejection port on my range officer is lower than that on my 1918 colt, I would assume the dimension could be some what variable between different makers.

Thanks to all for your input.  I've been in communication with Jon about a complete new build, so that's one of a few other options.  Of course, $$s and time are always a consideration.  I'm not getting any younger.  If a year's wait, I'll miss a whole season.  If I must, I can live with it, but would rather not.  On the other hand, ammunition and loading supplies are scare as hen's teeth, and who knows how long this will last.  

Right now, I'm waiting for Springfield Armory to get back to me on the availability of their custom wad gun.  I've heard they recently had one or more in stock, but who knows?  If not in stock, I want to know the wait time.  Hope to hear back tomorrow.

Springfield doesn't have any of the custom wad guns in inventory and the wait is 3-6 months for one.  The reliability of the wait-time estimate is anyone's guess.  

I'm still looking at options . . . .

Hang around here and wait for a decent used one.  There have been several recently.  You can still order your new one from whoever, but the used route will get you shooting.  One option in Washington State is DJ’s Loan and Sports shop.  I bought a nice heavy slide wad gun there 5 years ago and is a very good shooter.  Might call them and see what they have.
http://www.djsloans.com/

Rock River Arms, Les Baer, Clark Custom all make bullseye guns and might have something in stock. I'm partial to RRA, but any of them will be great guns. Give them a call. Sometimes they have guns available or can be built up quickly.

Champions Choice usually has some Les Baer guns in stock. Their website shows the wad guns out of stock but it might be worth a call.

Jon Eulette, Dave Salyer, KC Crawford... I'm forgetting a few others... are all excellent choices for a custom gun. Hopefully someone can set you up.

Thank you all for the suggestions.  I've already initiated contact with some of the usual suspects, and one has reached out to me.  Still setting up contacts with others.  Used is a possibility, and almost certainly the way to go cost wise, if the gun is a good one.  Problem is, I'm not a good judge, even if the gun is local and I can examine it to my heart's content.  40 years ago, yes, but too many years out of the game now.

Keep the suggestions coming.  I'm paying attention to all of them and haven't dismissed any.  I'll keep everyone as up to date as I can as things progress.

You can do what I did a couple of years ago - I wrote Dave Salyer to ask if any of his customers had a used 45 for sale.  (At the time, I thought I wanted something nicer than my Springfield.). One customer did, and I bought a Caspian that Dave had made into a bullseye gun long, long ago.  So yeah, you can write Dave, Jon, and KC and ask if they have any customers who want to sell their current guns.

I was wrong about my assumptions though - for reasons I can't explain, the old Springfield fits me better than the Caspian, or vice versa.  If I wasn't using the Caspian lower with my Nelson kit, I'd probably put it the Caspian gun for sale for whatever I paid two years ago.

Also, for a better suggestion, go to the Commercial Forum here, and post a WTB thread, describing what kind of gun you're hoping to buy.  You might find yourself stuck choosing which of them you want the most.   :-)

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know what Jon gets for a full build and what the wait time is?

As an option, if you already have a 45 you can send it to one of the Bullseye Gunsmiths for a rebarrel, off the top of my head you have: KC Crawford, Jon Eulette, Jon Shue, David Sam's, Joe Chambers, and Steve Huff at Accuracy X for a complete Multi-Sight top end. Can contact them individually to see what the current backlog and wait times are for the job or possibly even for a complete pistol build. Had two pistols rebarreled, triggers worked on, and sight rails fitted by Eulette, they locked up like a bank vault and accuracy was greatly improved.

Accuracy X is about 4 months for a complete pistol build, could be faster or slower depending on options and backlog.

Range Officer was a decent bang for the buck for what you get over a MilSpec: beavertail, lowered and flared ejection, adjustable sights. For the same machining to a basic MilSpec 1911 then you are in the hole vs starting off with a Range Officer.

I’m about your age and starting to spin up into bullseye.  Like you, I find iron sights to be fuzzy.  Since my primary goal is to finish my Distinguished Pistol Shot (last  EIC points in 1978) a dot isn’t an option.  The simple solution is a set of shooting glasses with half my reading prescription in the main lens and the full prescription in the bifocal.  With this setup I can’t focus on the target and the front sight is crisp and clear.  If you don’t have much astigmatism a pair of inexpensive off-the-shelf reading glasses will tell you what you need to know.

If you’re a gear-head like me you’ll be best served by getting what you want to start with and focusing your energy on training.  Otherwise, you’ll spend your energy fussing with gear and spending more money (that you can’t recover) in the long run.  The best advice appears several places above:  find a good used wad gun at a fair price and don’t look back.

I am new here, but wanted to reply, I work for Springfield Armory, and just checked, we have three of the hardball and wadcutter guns in stock. If you interested just PM me and I can help you order. You should have within a week. It has to ship to your FFL/Dealer. Steve

I like Springfield Armory, but have no idea about their custom shop.  I do see that Rock River will sell you a wad gun for about the same price.

https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=138

• .45 ACP
• RRA FORGED NM FRAME WITH BEVELED MAG WELL
• RRA BULLSEYE RIB
• YOUR CHOICE OF 15, 17, 20, 25 OR 30 LPI CHECKERED FRONT STRAP
• RRA FORGED NM 5 INCH SLIDE WITH DOUBLE SERRATIONS
• RRA MATCH ALUMINUM SPEED TRIGGER WITH CRISP 3.5 LB PULL
• MATCH COMMANDER HAMMER AND MATCH SEAR
• FLAT MAINSPRING HOUSING WITH 15, 17, 20, 25 OR 30 LPI CHECKERING
• THROATED NM KART BARREL WITH NM BUSHING
• POLISHED FEED RAMP
• BEAVERTAIL GRIP SAFETY WITH RAISED PAD
• SERRATED SLIDE STOP
• TWO-PIECE RECOIL GUIDE ROD
• LOWERED AND FLARED EJECTION PORT
• TUNED AND POLISHED EXTRACTOR
• EXTENDED EJECTOR
• SUPER ROSEWOOD GRIPS
• LUSTROUS BLUED FINISH
• INCLUDES ONE MAGAZINE
• TUNED FOR TOTAL RELIABILITY
• GUARANTEED TO SHOOT 1.5 INCH GROUPS AT 50 YARDS WITH 185 GRAIN FEDERAL GOLD MEDAL MATCH SEMI-WADCUTTER OR ATLANTA ARMS JHP

crmath wrote:.......I find iron sights to be fuzzy......The simple solution is a set of shooting glasses with half my reading prescription in the main lens and the full prescription in the bifocal.......

A simpler and less expensive solution would be to get a set of glasses made just for shooting, with a prescription in your shooting lens for the distance to your front sight.  The other lens could be plain glass, or a distance prescription, or whatever you find useful.  Get a frame for big lenses, and specify that the lenses be made from polycarbonate, so they will become your safety glasses.

Don't shoot with drug store inexpensive reading glasses.  If you care about your eyes, get polycarbonate.

If you can afford it, 

• try these:  https://www.tacticalrx.com/-cid-133
  
• ...or maybe these:  https://www.safevision.net/action-eyewear/shooting-hunting/quantum.html#/lens_type-frame_only_no_lenses/bifocal_type-none/tint_type-please_select/tint_color-please_select/anti_reflective_coating-none/mirror_coating-none/case_type-none 
  

I agree, that’s what I suggested.  I wouldn’t use reading glasses for shooting either.

The mention of inexpensive reading glasses was intended as a test to find out if custom shooting glasses would help to clearly see the sights  - “tell you what you need to know”.

crmath wrote:I’m about your age and starting to spin up into bullseye.  Like you, I find iron sights to be fuzzy.  Since my primary goal is to finish my Distinguished Pistol Shot (last  EIC points in 1978) a dot isn’t an option.  The simple solution is a set of shooting glasses with half my reading prescription in the main lens and the full prescription in the bifocal.  With this setup I can’t focus on the target and the front sight is crisp and clear.  If you don’t have much astigmatism a pair of inexpensive off-the-shelf reading glasses will tell you what you need to know.

If you’re a gear-head like me you’ll be best served by getting what you want to start with and focusing your energy on training.  Otherwise, you’ll spend your energy fussing with gear and spending more money (that you can’t recover) in the long run.  The best advice appears several places above:  find a good used wad gun at a fair price and don’t look back.

Thank you for the input.   I have an eye exam this month.  I plan to take my presently unmounted Matchdot II with me and see how it goes.  Will probably be interesting.  

Without getting too much in the weeds, I can focus fine on a front blade, but cannot see the target well enough to get lined up - even at 25 yards.  In contrast, I can focus on the target and see the black just fine, but cannot make out the front sight, not that I'd want to.  However, while focusing at a distance, I can still superimpose the red dot over the black and see it all nicely.  I suspect it has something to do with differential vision, but I'm far from a subject matter expert.  

My shooting has been limited to indoors at 25 yards.  I still don't know how it will all come together at 50 yards.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

It may be that some combination of prescription lenses would allow me to shoot in CMP/EIC matches at some point, but I enjoy shooting with a red dot more than I ever did with irons.  I leave it out there as possibility, albeit a doubtful one.