As you shoot Bullseye with a red dot sight, are you giving your attention to the dot, or to the target?

Since my very first handgun, I have been taught to focus specifically on the front sight, to the exclusion of everything else.
When I got my first red dot sight, I assumed the same reasoning applied, so my concentration was on the dot.

However, another option while using red dot sights is to concentrate on the target.
(For most people, technically, both red dot and target should be in sharp focus.)
For anyone shooting red dot sights, WHILE YOU ARE SHOOTING, which are you paying attention to, and why?

NOTE:

• Either you see a red dot, with a target that moves around (meaning you are mostly "paying attention to" the dot, 
  
• or you see a fixed target with a red dot that moves around (meaning that you are mostly paying attention to the target.
  

I don't think it is possible to concentrate on both at the same time, even though you see both.

"You're killing me Smalls"

I read everything posted by Cecil, and right away before he changes his mind!

AP

I shoot a dot the same way I shoot a trap gun.

Inthebeech gets the credit for going first.

Not that its not a good topic, but it doesn't matter what anyone else does, it's what works for you.  And what works for you at one level may not be the best at another level / experience.  You must commit, test, record, evaluate and even sometime reassess your process and equipment.  Generally every time your scores plateau.  

In fact, this topic has been hashed out literally hundreds of times on the forum (all the way back to the original BB days) and most all of them are worth researching and reading. 

FWIW, "limp wrists" topic goes on for 3 pages and no one really notices Clark's post on the CMP Article: Competition Nerve Control. 

Wow!   

CR

I agree with Cecil. The journal is vital. 

No need to over-think it.

I'm not sure what I really do but I think I'm looking at the dot.  I tried focusing on the target for a while and scores went down, so back to maybe looking at the dot.  Truth be known, my focus is probably somewhere between the dot and the target, not good.
Phil

And anyone who checked "mostly" (used in either of first two choices) should probably have checked "I'm not aware...."

Either one or the other, there should be no "mostly". Needs to be all the time depending on your choice for that shot.  

And I won't even get into "look at" versus actually "seeing" or "focus"......  

I look at a lot of different things / people; when Susan appears or speaks, I see and focus. Same concept for shooting.

CR

Cecil, I added the word "mostly", and tried to word in a way that would make it easy to give an "honest" answer as to what the person thinks he does.

I think you are one of the many people who say that when someone looks/focuses/whatever on the front sight, or dot, that's what they think they are doing - but even with a front sight focus, people may "see" the front sight, and think they're focusing on it, but their focus is often switching back and forth, and the reality is that they are focusing between the front sight and the target.

That's one more mistake I made until you and some other people corrected it.  I was sort of looking at the front sight or dot, or so I thought, but I wasn't focused on it so intently that I saw the target move back and forth.  I felt like I was watching the dot move around.

I never am aware of the target moving behind the dot.  I am always aware of the dot moving in front of the target.  But all this time, literally until just now, I'd have said I'm mostly looking at the dot - which is incorrect.

I see the dot.  I'm looking at the dot.  But with red dot sights, I see the dot moving around.

With steel, I focus on a mark on my front sight, and my eyes are locked in on it.  I do NOT see the front sight move around, I see the target move around relative to the front sight.



I think what I just wrote sounds rather silly.  I guess when it comes to red dot sights, I'm not really doing what I have thought I was doing.

That is why in the original question I used "look at" rather than "see" or "focus".  I'm deliberately (trying) to look at the dot, and apparently I'm failing.  Next time I go to the range, I will deliberately look at, focus on, and see the target, and then I'll see my dot moving around in front of the target, which is what I'm unintentionally sort of doing right now I guess.

If you suggest a better way to ask what I was attempting to ask, I will create a new thread using your wording.

If you respond to this post by saying "mike, you don't know what you're doing", you would quite literally be correct.  Thank you for making me aware of this.

I see them in the same plane.  So I just look at the whole/big picture.

In my opinion the target or dot question for any shooter depends on the wobble amount.  I believe a persons subconscious can not direct a dot wobbling large as well as directing when the wobble is small.  Zins mentioned that he goes back to the dot if his hold is off.  (I can't find this Zins quote in my files, but it's there)

I selected mostly because I’ve never truly pad that much attention.  I’m concentrating on delivering a good shot...so... my focus is very likely going from dot to target and back again relatively quickly.  I know the dot is dancing and not the target, so there is that, but orecisely where my focus is isn’t easy to say.

I focus on the target center because x years ago Zins told me to and I've trained that way ever since. The bullseye is my "front sight" and the dot is my "rear sight." Tens of thousands of rounds and hundreds of thousands of dry fire pulls I've done it exactly the same way. Honestly, I feel like either will work as long as the dot/target focus is consistent and practiced to the point that it is subconscious. But I'm only an Expert so far. So take it for what it's worth.

Jwhelan939 wrote:I focus on the target center because x years ago Zins told me to and I've trained that way ever since........

Did Brian give a reason why doing this is better than "focusing" on the dot?

Moving "the gun" to be in front of the fixed target makes what Brian taught you more logical.
I'm anxious to get back to the range, so I can try this - gotta wait until Ft. Lauderdale re-emerges from the flood waters.

Did Brian give a reason why doing this is better than "focusing" on the dot?

Nope. And I didn't ask. I just did. And trained.

I found it.
This is a part of what ZINS was writing to the old list years ago.


When I first started shooting Andy Moody and I were talking about looking at the target VS looking at the sight. I was young and knew no better so I tried it. Keep in mind this was my first year as a bullseye shooter. I proceeded to shirt my first ever 100 long line with my .22. Heck it was my first 100 longline period. The Team Captain called everyone into circle and asked me tell them what I did that string and if I learned something. I told him I turned my dot down and looked at the target as oppose to the front sight. Oh My God. He about had a fit, but learning had occurred and not just for me. From that moment on it became not so uncommon for Marines to look at the target.




Here lies the problem. Many shooters that try this and do not get the desired results are not truly looking at the target. Keep in mind to shoot a dot in Bullseye and do it well you have to either focus on the target or on the DOT. Too many people are focusing somewhere between the DOT and the target. This is equivalent to looking at the target with iron sights. Not gonna work. Be true to yourself when determining where your focus is.



FOR ME, I find that when looking at the target I accept the wobble of the dot more and do not get hung up on the trigger. NOTE: if you have a big wobble area this is harder to achieve. There are days that my dot may not sit as still as I like and on said days I will bring my focus back to the dot. So if you have a decent hold you should be able to do this with a good deal of success. If you a big wobble, the true method of looking at the dot is great. Remember that is how I learned to shoot.


Bold added for emphasis.

I knew bits and pieces of what you posted just now, but you (Brian) have put it all together.

Thanks for finding this, and posting.

Now I'm even more anxious to get back to the range and try it this way.

mikemyers wrote:I knew bits and pieces of what you posted just now, but you (Brian) have put it all together.

Thanks for finding this, and posting.

Now I'm even more anxious to get back to the range and try it this way.

Just be aware that what we think we are doing, is not always what we are actually doing.

If you are now worrying about whether to focus on the dot or the target it implies that you have decided to put your triggering on auto pilot.  That’s fine, nothing wrong with that but but it takes a lot of work to truly make your triggering consistent and automatic 

Another strategy is to trust your hold, and get on the trigger.  

I have a horrible tendency to move my wrist if I focus on the dot.

I'm one of those who isn't sure. Nice to see I'm not alone. What I think I see is the small red dot floating around the bigger black dot while I'm increasing pressure on the trigger.

Even with irons, I visually focus on the front sight so it's sharp but I'm seeing the position of that front sight in relation to the blurry rear sight. I use a sub-sub-six hold so the black doesn't play a big part.

Serenity now.   Serenity now.

Target.As you learn to use a red dot, the dot settles on the desired target area without thinking... muscle memory. At that point you jerk the trigger thereby blowing the shot, at least that's my story.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151028042011/http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/

I pretend the dot is the front sight and focus on that keeping the dot in the middle of the circular tube ( like the rear notch on the open sights). When I first put my dots on I tried focusing on the target and shot horribly. 

The hardest thing to learn for me was to not pay much attention to the dot and more on just a perfect trigger pull. Its still a work in progress but getting better and better.

james r chapman wrote:I shoot a dot the same way I shoot a trap gun.

IC or Cylinder choke?

TonyH wrote:

james r chapman wrote:I shoot a dot the same way I shoot a trap gun.

IC or Cylinder choke?

.042 (1.0668mm)

Keep your eyes (plural) on the bird !