Casting Bullets for Precision Shooting

I've been giving consideration to casting my own bullets, especially since it appears you can save a fair amount of money compared to purchasing commercial bullets, but I'm concerned with accuracy in precision shooting. What does everyone think? Do you believe you can cast bullets with good enough quality for precision shooting, especially in competition?  Even at 50 yds?

If I were to cast, I would consider casting .45, 9mm and 38 special.

Thanks!

When you add in the labor to cast size and coat or lube, there isn’t much savings to DIY. Wheelweights made from lead alloys are a thing of the past. Other uses of lead are drying up other than batteries... and DONT even try to recover the lead from those.

RoyLMartinez0809 wrote:I've been giving consideration to casting my own bullets, especially since it appears you can save a fair amount of money compared to purchasing commercial bullets, but I'm concerned with accuracy in precision shooting. What does everyone think? Do you believe you can cast bullets with good enough quality for precision shooting, especially in competition?  Even at 50 yds?

If I were to cast, I would consider casting .45, 9mm and 38 special.

Thanks!

In general cast Bullets are usually not particularly accurate for the long line.  There have been some exceptions.  You will have better luck with the 45 Bullets than with 38 or 9mm.  I can bring you some 9mm cast lead Bullets to try on Sunday.  I don’t believe they will shoot at the long line but you are welcome to try.  I do agree with Wobbly.  Especially when you get in on the Zero lead swaged bullet buy, you won’t save much or any money or get better results by casting your own.   Kate

I’ve shot 880’s in both 38 & 45 with my own cast bullets. I’ve seen cast bullets shoot under 1” at 50 yds from machine rest. I prefer shooting cast bullets instead of jacketed. They will not hold you back. Obviously you need to learn how to do the hole thing from start to finish, but it is very satisfying to shoot well with your own cast bullets. 45 is very forgiving to load for but the 38 will take finding the right sizing diameter and powder combination. Good luck getting 9mm to shoot cast bullets, I will pass. Wheel weights are to the point of don’t bother looking for them or using them. Too easy to get a weight that isn’t lead and mess up your alloy. I would buy it in bulk pre alloyed.
I’m trying to start casting again, but mainly for 300+ grain heavy weight revolver bullets.
I used to buy home cast bullets from a local friend and shot them for years. Shot many 10X targets with those bullets.
Enjoy!
Jon

One place to find all the lead in the world is marinas that salvage sailboats. The keels are 100% pure

If you have a source for material you can save a good amount of money and have great accuracy as well. Alloys have become expensive though. As Jon has stated, wheel weights are no longer a reliable source. I’m always on the lookout for casting material.
JKR

I've cast thousands of my own 45's and they shoot great. To get an inexpensive start I recommend the Lee pot which is $80 then a nice mold from Magma Engineering for $100, handles for $20 then get a Lee push through sizer for $25 that can use any single stage press. Add a nice thermometer and a couple other things and you can get good results for $250. Wheel weights used to be the way to go but its a PITA smelting them with all the zinc and even plastic weights now. If you can collect range scrap from a berm that's free lead, also Ebay has lots of sellers that ship flat rate boxes of lead for about a dollar a pound if I recall, so that's about $.03 a bullet. I suggest tumble lube, there are several recipes online.

Just another rabbit hole.  I cast bullets for 20 years.   My best target is 5.5" 14 shots at 300 yards from a 22-250.  Lyman 22 cast bullet from pure linotype with a gas check.   You sure can get 45s and 38s to shoot 10 or even X ring with cast, but it takes some time and there is a learning curve.     I have been  shooting Brazos coated bullets for a few years now.  They shoot as well as my own cast with less hassle.   Its a hobby in its self just like reloading.  Also, you don't really save money,  you shoot more and will improve your skills.  

A top quality lead pot is about $250 and a top quality Star Lube Sizer is about the same.  

I had the lee pots and cussed them,  Too slow, not enough watts.   I used a cast iron pan on a camp stove and ladle.  I ended up with an RCBS pro melt and star sizer.   I shot tens of thousands of bullets I cast my self. I even shot a deer with one.   I shot silhouette with cast bullets from my 32-20 and 45 colt.    

If you want to get into it, have fun.   Cast Boolits board is a great place.  Its at Gunloads.com.  

Good luck
David

David R wrote:Just another rabbit hole...    Also, you don't really save money,  you shoot more and will improve your skills.  

If you want to get into it, have fun.   Cast Boolits board is a great place.  Its at Gunloads.com.  

Good luck
David

David,
Been doing the same for about the same time period. 
Yes, there's a learning curve. But, as you mentioned, the cast boolit forum is really a great place to tighten up your learning curve. A lot of really good casters on a really good board. All are more than happy to help lead you down "the rabbit hole".

My first ones were 6-8" bullets at 50 yds at the beginning of my learning curve.. Now, they're more in the 1 1/2-2" category.

Reclaimed range scrap is really good for 45 or 38 bullets. You generally don't have to do any mixing to get to a 9-11 BN hardness.
Allen

The cost of cast bullets is one of the few things I have seen where expense has actually gone down in real dollars due to competition.   

You can have fun casting bullets or swaging them,  but don’t fool yourself that you are saving money.   You can have a whole bunch of cast bullets delivered to your door for a lot less money than it is going to cost you in gas, time and equipment to acquire the lead, cast, size, and lube your own.  

I think the current shortages have kind of panicked everyone.  This too shall pass.

I’ve been casting since 1975 with a couple interludes along the way. What David said about shooting more is true. At least in my case. I’ve shot a scary amount of lead down range. I don’t agree regarding expensive equipment, especially to get you started. 
Accuracy? I currently have a black powder cartridge rifle shooting 3”, 10 shot groups at 200 yards. Hoping to shrink that down a little more yet and enter some mid and long range matches this season. I’m also planning to try paper patching. As David said, it’s a hobby in itself.
JKR

Thanks everyone!  A lot of different perspectives, but all good!  I'm going to do additional research to see if it is something that I will want to get into, before I make any purchases or decisions but everyone's input is super helpful and appreciated!  

A lot of the equipment is out of stock right now so this will give me an opportunity to learn more.  For the time being I ordered the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook to study up on that, and I certainly plan to look up the "Cast Boolits board" that David R mentioned.  I am not familiar with that forum, but will look it up!

Thanks again everyone!

Roy another good source is The Cast Bullet Association
Stan

I have really enjoyed casting bullets. From learning the process to make consistent projectiles to drilling a awesome target with them. But for me i had to ask how much is my time worth? There is always something that takes higher priority including shooting its self. I don't regret any of the time and money spent, but for me its just another hobby i don't have time for. That said i won't sell my ingots or molds.

I've found that hand cast bullets have equal or better accuracy to their commercial equivalents.  This is provided the bullet alloy composition is correct along with the associated casting, sizing, and lubing processes that go into making them.  There are a lot of details that go into that.  I find that visual inspection of the results is sufficient but if highest accuracy is needed (for long line or group testing) then taking the extra step of weighing them for outliers is a good idea.

The subject of casting tends to be poo poo'd on this forum with lots of folks saying its a waste of time, doesn't save money, and that the time is better spent shooting or dry firing.   Although I see their point my perspective is that is doesn't need to be an all or nothing situation.  I use both cast and commercial bullets with most being commercial.  However, I think its a fun side hobby related to shooting.  I tend to cast during cold weather months when it is fun and buy during warm months when its not.

Another advantage of casting is that if you have some weird bullet need that can't be found commercially you can order a custom mold and sizing die to make them to your liking (like say a 32 wadcutter with a specific diameter that can't be found).  I didn't go into specifics since as it has been said on this thread Cast Boolit forum is the best source of that information.  If you decide to start casting good luck and remember its still OK to buy bullets!

WillH
Thanks for your perspective!  I like what you said.  I guess the big part if I do in fact make the commitment is I'll need to do as you stated:  



In other words casting correctly in order to get good accuracy, and it sounds like it can be done.  I'm just not sure about how to get to the right alloy composition, but I have more studying to do...

I found this morning this particular book on The Cast Bullet Association website - "Cast Bullets for Beginners and Experts" that looks like it will be a good reference that I'm considering ordering, of course in addition to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook that I already ordered, and the "Cast Boolits" forum board too.

Thanks again!

I sure miss the days when I could get 300 pounds of wheel weights from a tire shop for free, and the guys felt blessed that I gave them $10 for lunch.

This reply is based on watching a friend, who could have easily gotten his Doctoral in Metallurgy, but chose to stay in the real world of manufacturing and had a stellar career.  He developed processes that were unheard of and was also innovative.  He and I were the “team” that would evaluate and make recommendations on purchasing, or not, many companies and we also rationalized and moved and consolidated way too many plants, offices and warehouses.  I once did a count snd I was the “kiss of death” as I closed 35+ operations during my career.  We also were the internal consultants for a diverse division of a Fortune 500 company and troubleshot problems in 5 continents.  He is a former bench rest shooter with a lot of trophies.

One of our manufacturing operations used lead for a proprietary heat treating operation....invented by Leonia De Vinci....so he had a source of lead to begin his casting career.

I found him a couple of buckets of wheel weights locally and he paid $40 for 192 pounds.  Here is his process...and tips as he is mentoring some other buddies 

First.... you have to understand metallurgy to make life easy...or you have to have a source of the right alloy if you don’t want to do ingot “refining”.  He is working on the buckets and started by segregating them into 3 types.  Zinc, lead and double stick..which he might have to subdivide into zinc and lead.  He is mechanically separating the steel clips.  Tightens the clip in a big vise and then uses a large screwdriver or pry bar and pries off the metal.  Keeps the zinc and lead segregated.

Next, he starts to refine and pours his own ingots. He purchases used muffin tins at Goodwill snd uses them as molds. When he melts and drosses off the floating contamination, he also has premixed or weighed his allowing blend.  He has a ratio of zinc to lead and tin to lead.  He buys used pewter hardware at Thrift shops and Goodwill.  Sounds like a lot of work.  YES, but his casting production is unbelievable.  If you don’t watch the alloy ratios and get too much zinc, then the lead sticks and you have issue with mold filling and pouring which equates to inconsistency in the bullets and the dimensions.  So, a high quality lead alloy is essential to improved productivity and higher quality bullets.

His casting process uses a propane heated pot, outside under a second story deck.  He runs two sets of molds.  He pours one set and let’s it cool and the pulls the bullets from another set.  While he pours that set, he is letting the other set cool.  Thus, he keeps the molds hotter and also uses his “internal work time” to his advantage. The old IE and Manufacturing Engineering skill sets we developed come into play.

He does not do fancy lubing or swaging, but he could.  He uses a commercial lube and coats them in a plastic bag or a container.  Then dries or cures the lube in his wife’s oven.  He is very accurate and I think that the cast Bullets that I have bought from Bayou, Brazos and Magnus are comparable.  But, that is my opinion.

So, bottom line...you can do an excellent job.  He will get over 9,000 projectiles from the 192 pounds....probably his refining will yield t least 90% alloyed lead or maybe 95%.

Like anything else, the more you read and research, the better and the more methodical and persnickety you are, the better.  

He will NOT do a YouTube video...

Second post.....found an email....will share it....

This was sent to our buddies that are beginning to cast....

Went shooting with CENSORED yesterday and he mentioned you are thinking about getting into bullet casting. I have been doing this for a few years and was shooting cast bullets yesterday which is how this came up. I cast .45 and .38/9mm and I have some unsolicited comments you might be interested in. 
I cast a 125gr. .358" diameter rf (rounded flat nose) bullet for both 9 mm and .38. It has been a good compromise weight for both calibers. I shoot it as cast for .38 and run them through a .356" sizing die for 9mm. The revolvers have a forcing cone so I don't worry about the diameter. They feed well in my automatics. Mostly, these are what I feed all my milsurp autos. I also use this same bullet for my .380's. It's a little heavy for them but there is published load data.
I lubricate with liquid alox only. Nothing fancy and no tooling required other than a bowl to coat them in and a sheet if wax paper to dry them on.
Get some real pewter. I have gotten it in thrift stores, usually beat up cups or small jugs. It's mostly tin and it greatly improves fluidity and mold fill. I am not precise but I try to guestimate 2-5% pewter and the rest lead. I'm not particular about the kind if lead. It's whatever I can get my hands on. Ingots, wheel weights, pipe, battery terminals, spent bullets, whatever.
I use a tiny amount of beeswax on the sprue plate on a hot die to keep it lubricated. Only need it when I start up and if the plate gets sticky, maybe once every 50 pours?
I always open my molds over a container of water. Quenches the lead quickly and its safer that way. 
Always "smoke" the molds before casting. Prevents sticking.
Preheat the molds before casting. Just put a corner into the lead pot for a few minutes. Once you get going, you don't need to do this any more.
Scrap the first 4 or 5 pours. That is part of the mold preheat. These usually don't fill anyway.
Use a wooden baton to tap the sprue plate open and unlock the mold. Do this over the lead pot. Then open the mold over the water. The process is pretty fast once you establish a rhythm.
I take common sense safety precautions. Cast outdoors, wear gloves, glasses and long sleeves, make sure the lead is dry, etc.
Anyway, that's what I do. If you have questions, remember, ask the Metallurgist. 

Now, I do NOT know his magic formula for alloying, but could probably get it.  He has spent the most of the last 10 days refining and casting his ingots. As I said earlier, he used to have a supply of ingots that was very high quality,  We would experiment and had surplus lead left over....and we bought it at what the company got for it when it was sold as scrap.  He finally, after 20 years of retirement (went out early) is beginning to run out...LOL...

Just out of curiosity, has anyone done any experimentation with 9mm bullet casting?   
   I don’t expect them to shoot at the long line, but was curious as to what people felt was the optimum weight/diameter/ shape for a KKM slow twist rate barrel.

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners

This is a good read.

http://www.lasc.us/fryxell_book_contents.htm

I have been shooting lead in 9mm. I have a Dan Wesson PM-9 that will shoot an average of 5, 5 shot groups 1.32".  This is from 5 different loads.

I use Missouri Bullets 125 SWC ahead of 3.5 grains of bullseye @ 1.11".  This is my standard load for this gun,  It will put them all in the X ring at 25 yards. 

I have to use 4.0 Bullseye for my shorter Springfield Armory RO Champion.  It will not shoot the 3.5 grain ones at all.  They just spray.  The RO Champion is not an accurate gun anyhow.   

I have a package of Brazos coated 150 SWC sized to .356.  I shot some at 4.0 PP and 4.5 PP loaded to the same length as above.   Results were OK.    Not my best day for shooting groups.  I went home and loaded a box of 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 of power pistol.  Will be shooting most of them on Wednesday.  Cant get out the chrony this week.  I need to shoot at the outdoors range and its effin cold out there.   

I will be shooting groups from the PM-9,  the RO Champion and Sig P210 A.   

I do not have much luck with any lead round nose bullet.    The 147 flat point shoot OK, but I have not spent much time doing accuracy testing.  

David

Not sure why in gods name you would manually remove the clips from the wheel weights, the steel clips melt out and float to the top and are easily skimmed off. I started manually sorting the iron and zinc weights out but found if you just get a decent pot of molten clean lead you can dump a bunch of mixed weights in there which instantly drops the temperature, as it heats up you can stir and skim out the zinc and iron. As long as you're watching there's almost no risk of zinc contamination. Just make sure you get out the plastic weights or you'll have a real smoke show on your hands, the plastic weighs are rare but they're out there.

Speaking of zinc I've never heard of someone intentionally adding zinc to their alloy, most people avoid zinc like the plague as it will ruin your alloy.

^^^^^What he said  ^^^^^


David

Do not dump a bunch of wheel weights into a pot of molten lead! If you do it, sooner or later you’ll find out why!
JKR