SW-41 vs. Marvel 1911

I currently have a SW-41 and when it works it is great. However, it seems persnickety to me. Maybe I am the only one with issues and I just got a lemon. I have only used CCI SV in it because that’s what everyone said to do. I have about 1k rds down the pipe so far.

When I got it the thing would Fail to eject (stovepipe) about every 10-20 rds. I changed the recoil spring and now it only has the FTE about every 100rds. But, it still happens nonetheless. I also learned that the 41 needs to be cleaned about every 100 rds to keep it running and I also put oil on the first bullet in the magazine. This all seems like a lot of work just to shoot 5rd strings from a semiauto. 

This has me wondering what other .22 pistols with a 1911 style grip are more reliable and accurate enough for the BE game. Is a 1911 with Marvel conversion a more reliable option? 

I plan to give the MG2 a whirl but I would like to finish chasing EIC points first. 

I’m looking for suggestions, do I keep the SW-41 or trade it in for something else?

Keep the 41 and buy more 22’s....can’t ever have enough 22 pistols.

I wouldn't blame it on the M41 design, but maybe just your particular one. I have a 7 3/8 that I can't recall having a malfunction in the last 3-5K rounds. I don't clean it very often either, certainly not every 100 rounds. My short barrel one is newer and has issues going into battery 100%. Maybe your extractor could be relieved to give it more inward travel, or your recoil spring could be changed out with a reduced power version. The 41 didn't get the following it does by not being reliable.

Send it to KC Krawford. Nobody like a USMC 2112 to un##ck a 41. Have him make the trigger at least 3.5# or 4# if you want to get Distinguished. OR sell it and buy a Marvel, then you will HAVE to shoot the same 4# trigger on your service pistol. 

I still don't understand why so many people buy them. More problems than a Yugo. But i'm sure there is ONE Yugo out there with 300k on it so somebody thinks Yugo's are great.

I did watch Sgt. Park shoot a 880+ at Perry with an iron sighted, 4# trigger 41 in 2003 (I think). Pretty sure he broke 2600 there using that 41 and ball gun. He was a summer "pick up" shooter.

Yeah they can work but most people have the same problems you have.

Lozoya won Nationals in 1992 shooting a Curtis built 41.
I’m not a 41 fan but if they are reliable they can shoot very well.
Jon

That is true Jon. A very modified custom barreled 41 by Curtis. He shot that at Dulzura matches in early 2000's.
Don't know if you knew Col. Al Bacon. He shot a 41 also. Another USMC built 41 though. He shot it so much that it finally had problems. I gave him Bob's number and it was fixed by the next Lake Wolford match.

It seems like 41's come in two flavors, either they are trouble free and don't care what you feed them or problem children.  My early 70's model is almost trouble free, I thought it was because I cleaned it after every range trip.  I stopped doing that and only clean it after every 500-1000 rounds and now I get a hiccup for the first shot after it has been cleaned then it is fine.  It seems like the areas on 41's to look at are usually either recoil springs, extractor, rough chambers or damaged bolt faces.  The nice thing about 41's is you have lots of barrel choices.  If you don't want a euro style pistol sending your 41 and your favorite barrel to KC or other another good smith will be the best solution.  Good luck.

Mine runs flawlessly after I changed both springs and extractor to a Volquartsen I think.

robert84010 wrote:
I still don't understand why so many people buy them. More problems than a Yugo. But i'm sure there is ONE Yugo out there with 300k on it so somebody thinks Yugo's are great.

KC turned my Yugo into a Toyota. A 1978 5.5 Heavy barrel.

robert84010 wrote:That is true Jon. A very modified custom barreled 41 by Curtis. He shot that at Dulzura matches in early 2000's.
Don't know if you knew Col. Al Bacon. He shot a 41 also. Another USMC built 41 though. He shot it so much that it finally had problems. I gave him Bob's number and it was fixed by the next Lake Wolford match.

Knew Al very well. Used to ride with him to Prado all the time. Shot San Diego matches with him too. 
Jon

Send it to David Sams for a barrel liner and tuneup.

Alex Hamilton can give your 41 a reliability package treatment. While it is there, I'd have him re-line the barrel. My Marvel .22 Conversion is very reliable, but the magazines had to be tuned to get there. Tuning the magazines isn't difficult, though. The most accurate and reliable .22 out of the box for me has been the Hammerli 208s. Here's a link to Alex Hamilton: https://tenring.com/ruger-mark-ii-govt-model-rimfire-22-accuracy/

robert84010 wrote:Send it to KC Krawford. Nobody like a USMC 2112 to un##ck a 41. Have him make the trigger at least 3.5# or 4# if you want to get Distinguished. OR sell it and buy a Marvel, then you will HAVE to shoot the same 4# trigger on your service pistol. 

I still don't understand why so many people buy them. More problems than a Yugo. But i'm sure there is ONE Yugo out there with 300k on it so somebody thinks Yugo's are great.

I did watch Sgt. Park shoot a 880+ at Perry with an iron sighted, 4# trigger 41 in 2003 (I think). Pretty sure he broke 2600 there using that 41 and ball gun. He was a summer "pick up" shooter.

Yeah they can work but most people have the same problems you have.

The 41 comes with a 2.5 lb trigger and NRA/CMP rules require a 2.0 lb min. Why would anybody shoot a 41 with a 4 lb trigger?
-TH

YBE Mike wrote:Alex Hamilton can give your 41 a reliability package treatment. While it is there, I'd have him re-line the barrel. My Marvel .22 Conversion is very reliable, but the magazines had to be tuned to get there. Tuning the magazines isn't difficult, though. The most accurate and reliable .22 out of the box for me has been the Hammerli 208s. Here's a link to Alex Hamilton: https://tenring.com/ruger-mark-ii-govt-model-rimfire-22-accuracy/

Thanks for the link. How often does a barrel need to get replaced/re-sleeved? 

I am willing to sell the 41 an get a Hammerli if that is the best choice. 

1. I see that there is a 208s and a 215. Is one better than the other for BE? 

2. Does Hammerli still make parts for the 208s (mags, springs, etc)?

3. Is it possible to mount optics on 208s?

4. Are there many smiths that work on them & re-sleeve them if needed?

hengehold wrote:
Thanks for the link. How often does a barrel need to get replaced/re-sleeved? 
If done right and taken care of only once.

I am willing to sell the 41 an get a Hammerli if that is the best choice. 

1. I see that there is a 208s and a 215. Is one better than the other for BE? 
Basic Hammerli model groups 208 (slide often says international)/215 and 208s/215s. Finish on the 208 is better than the 215. Biggest difference is the trigger blade placement on the 's' models is can be moved, where as the other models the position is static. Triggers can be single or two stage. Best model is personal preference, the true s models command a premium. Depending on age, some have safeties some don't. 

2. Does Hammerli still make parts for the 208s (mags, springs, etc)?
Most parts are available (Red Feather) but not all. Hammerli does not make parts for these any more. 208/215 parts are expensive.
Hammerli still makes and supports the X-Esse (originally called a trailside) Similar design to a 208/215 but simplified and not as finely made.  

3. Is it possible to mount optics on 208s?
Yes, several mounts have been made Larry's mount is popular though others exist.

4. Are there many smiths that work on them & re-sleeve them if needed?
Yes but not as many as say a 1911.

Questions answered in bold. 

I personally am a 1911 conversion guy. I have tried all the popular 22's (41, Pardini, aw93, 208, ruger, buckmark, smith victory, ect.) and came to the conclusion that they all have individual positives and negatives. I shoot my 45 for centerfire, so for me it makes most sense to carry the same ergonomics and trigger set up to 22. I can train with the 45 and have direct cross over to the 22. 

As an aside, the Camp Perry 22 aggregate record was once held by a Trailside 897-60x by Jim Henderson (2005) I think he broke that record by x's with a 208

i also had many issues with model 41.i did every repair i found on forum.all helped and final repair now works very good,clean chamber,extractor,smooth recoil rod,polish chamber,at first went with lower recoil spring but then not fully tight bolt to barrel.so factory recoil spring,clean chamber,drop of oil ,and i clipped the mainspring 1.5 coil.so far running good.tyro

hengehold wrote:

robert84010 wrote:Send it to KC Krawford. Nobody like a USMC 2112 to un##ck a 41. Have him make the trigger at least 3.5# or 4# if you want to get Distinguished. OR sell it and buy a Marvel, then you will HAVE to shoot the same 4# trigger on your service pistol. 

I still don't understand why so many people buy them. More problems than a Yugo. But i'm sure there is ONE Yugo out there with 300k on it so somebody thinks Yugo's are great.

I did watch Sgt. Park shoot a 880+ at Perry with an iron sighted, 4# trigger 41 in 2003 (I think). Pretty sure he broke 2600 there using that 41 and ball gun. He was a summer "pick up" shooter.

Yeah they can work but most people have the same problems you have.

The 41 comes with a 2.5 lb trigger and NRA/CMP rules require a 2.0 lb min. Why would anybody shoot a 41 with a 4 lb trigger?
-TH

You mentioned getting service pistol distinguished, isn't that what this is all about? Something I did 20 years ago. what would I know. nevermind.

My early 70s 41 is very reliable.  Always has been.. today's 41s, egh. Luck of the draw.. i did update the extractor to a volquartsen and tune it by adding a touch of tig weld to the inside edge so i could set the extractor to only grab the rim and not touch the case. nephew shoots it now with a Clark barrel.. i own several Marvels and all are 100%. Shoot a Trailside today

hengehold wrote:

YBE Mike wrote:Alex Hamilton can give your 41 a reliability package treatment. While it is there, I'd have him re-line the barrel. My Marvel .22 Conversion is very reliable, but the magazines had to be tuned to get there. Tuning the magazines isn't difficult, though. The most accurate and reliable .22 out of the box for me has been the Hammerli 208s. Here's a link to Alex Hamilton: https://tenring.com/ruger-mark-ii-govt-model-rimfire-22-accuracy/

Thanks for the link. How often does a barrel need to get replaced/re-sleeved? 

I am willing to sell the 41 an get a Hammerli if that is the best choice. 

1. I see that there is a 208s and a 215. Is one better than the other for BE? 

2. Does Hammerli still make parts for the 208s (mags, springs, etc)?

3. Is it possible to mount optics on 208s?

4. Are there many smiths that work on them & re-sleeve them if needed?

.22 barrels don't need replacing if they shoot well. The barrel lining assures that you get the best accuracy. The re-lined barrels give superb accuracy. The stock M-41 barrel might be ok.

I like a the 2 stage trigger of the Hammerli. All 208s pistols have the two stage trigger and the trigger can be moved fore and aft to fit the shooter. Some 215's have 2 stage triggers.

Hammerli is owned by Sig. They don't make parts or mags for the .22 Hammerli all steel pistols. 

Larry's Guns, Knapp and Madori all made scope mounts for the 208s. They are attached to a weight which slides onto a groove under the barrel. There are other mounts available. I thing BME makes one or two.

Some of the former military armorers, who went into business for themselves, know their way around the Hammerli 208s, 215 pistols. Anybody who re-lines pistol barrels may be able to re-line Hammerli barrels. Unless abused, a Hammerli barrel should retain its accuracy pretty much indefinitely.

Today Hammerli is a Walther product..

What is the best route to go if using a Marvel conversion?
1. Have a purpose built gun made by a smith like KC custom?
2. Buy the cheapest POS 1911 I can find and have a Smith give it a trigger job?

Any reason option 1 is better than option 2?

Ok, you have a gun with less than 1000 rounds with only one type of ammo?

I would suggest simply trying other ammo first.  Now today that's not as easy in the past but I have seen a simple change to another brand do wonders for 41s.  I tend to recommend SK Pistol - Special Match for 41s as a first option as it's a slightly higher velocity, the lube is pretty slick, the bullet profile mimics the older. 22 designs (think what was available when the gun and mags were designed) and the accuracy is generally excellent.  I keep a case or so around just for shooting in my 41s.

In any event, ammo change is a relatively easy path to some 41 issues.  On the other hand,  I will also say that there are some 41s that are simply an over designed and over priced fishing weights.

CR

hengehold wrote:What is the best route to go if using a Marvel conversion?
1. Have a purpose built gun made by a smith like KC custom?
2. Buy the cheapest POS 1911 I can find and have a Smith give it a trigger job?

Any reason option 1 is better than option 2?

A dedicated lower made by an experienced smith is always the best option. They have the knowledge to make it run reliably and the build quality will be top notch. KC does great work, definitely one of the best options. 

The downside of buying a cheap 1911 and getting a trigger job done is the frame may be of questionable quality. The hammer and sear pin holes need to be parallel and square for a good trigger job, the cheap frames may be slightly off. Every smith has a preference for the parts they use and "cheap" is never on that list.

I concur with Cecil.  Change ammo.  I’ve had good luck with my 41 and the following Ammo:
CCI SV, GECO 22 Semi Auto, Federal 22 Auto Match, Fiocchi 22 40 Gr HP Subsonic, Norma TAC 22, RWS Pistol Match, Lapua Center-X, SK Standard +.  

My 41 has a 7-3/8 factory and a 5.5 inch Clark.

+1 for send it to K.C.