AW93 Trigger.....HELP!!!

First topic message reminder :

I've read the posts on this subject on this forum, targettalk & Pilkguns. Brenzovich has not been helpful.

Does anyone know how to adjust this trigger? My goal is a short first stage with a drips to short roll break.

mspingeld wrote:Regarding the pivot point support, this picture shows that the two sears do have two points of support on the frame but one side of the frame is indented and the parts sit over the indentation. The upper sear, not shown, is supported in the same way. I cannot feel any play (a little unscientific, I admit).

I totally agree on the pivot pins having plenty of support, they both are pressed into the frame contacting at two points, and I don't believe they contribute at all to sloppy movement. Quite the opposite, IMO.

OTOH, that photo of the trigger spring got me wondering. I have a Rink grip on mine and I thought it was clear of the moving parts. Turns out that may not be true - the spring does ride high, and there's evidence that it does touch the wood. Not much, but the wear is definitely there. I'm going to think about whether flipping the spring, or shaving a little wood, is best. One issue I see with the flip is that the hook end, where it attaches in front to the adjustment bellcrank, might ride at an awkward angle, making the spring a little bit nonlinear. So I'm leaning toward some careful wood carving.

I'll definitely try some more adjustment to see if I can reduce the overall length of the pull. I tweaked the "trigger point" screw #21 to get the first stage where I like, and the "trigger slack" screw #25 to raise the overall weight to 2.5lb. But when I tried to reduce the second stage pull, things got weird so I set those back to where they were. I've been shooting it okay, but the long pull still trips me up sometimes. I'd love to bring it "in".

I did not say that if the pins were pressed into the frame it would contribute to sloppy movement, actually I agree that it would make a good pivot. However in my AW the pins are not pressed in, it's a part of the sear so that the sear and pivot pin is one piece. The pin then pivots in the frame and in my gun, new out of the box it was sloppy! I also mentioned that if the pin is pressed in and sear have a hole in it buying a new pin and sear and do what is required to install it will be a good upgrade, I just might do that with the Hammer sear if it's the same.

Froneck wrote:I did not say that if the pins were pressed into the frame it would contribute to sloppy movement, actually I agree that it would make a good pivot. However in my AW the pins are not pressed in, it's a part of the sear so that the sear and pivot pin is one piece. The pin then pivots in the frame and in my gun, new out of the box it was sloppy! I also mentioned that if the pin is pressed in and sear have a hole in it buying a new pin and sear and do what is required to install it will be a good upgrade, I just might do that with the Hammer sear if it's the same.

Interesting, I was not aware there were differences in the sear pivot. My serial is relatively recent, in the 22xxx range (actually it reads 18022xxx). Is yours in the earlier <20xxx range I assume? Or even the older 4-digit range? I've not seen any of the latter.

My SN# is 20748 (5 digits) Thinking about it I remember shooting it at Perry 5 years ago, I'm sure I had it a year earlier maybe 2. Yikes been a while I'm not sure when I got it. Been a while since I did any work on it. I removed the top Aluminum piece and made one from Titanium. I did it because the scope mounts from Brenzovich didn't work. First one moved, second one was no better neither was the 3rd, each year I would get a replacement from Brenzovich at Perry so it seems the gun is older. What I did was copy the dimensions exactly from the original aluminum top piece and mounted a MRDS  red dot by Insight. I didn't like the reflex sight due to the rain that year at Perry so I made an adapter from doctor to Weaver mount. Being it was high I removed the aluminum adapter I made and cut the Titanium to fit the Weaver style on a Nikon red dot therefore lowering scope height. Also made an aluminum "forearm" steel was kinda heavy. I did buy and tried Rink grips but decided to make the 1911 adapter and use 1911 grips. It's do so the the width of the grips are the same as on my 1911s. Which reminds me I have to get off my butt and modify the Printed grips I got for the 1911 so I can send them back to get the corrected version so he can then complete 1911 style grips for my MatchGun 2. Where can I Buy parts I don't want to deal with Brenzovich.
 None of my modifications alter the gun in any way, I have all the parts and can make it original at any time.

Froneck wrote:My SN# is 20748 (5 digits)

Any SN from 20000 and up is the current model, though I'm sure there are differences as time goes on. I used to have one in that range, but decided I did not need two so it's not available to check the pivot pins. On my 22xxx one, the top pin (hammer sear) is black, and the bottom pin (trigger sear) is silver. Both are pressed into the frame.

I went back and tweaked a little more, and remembered the issues I had trying to reduce the total pull distance. When I attempt to tighten screw #20 (to reduce the "slack"), the sear won't reset after firing. And when re-tightening screw #22 (to reduce the "stop"), the opposite happens, the mechanism won't fire. I've got them both backed off a little, for now. I may attempt to adjust the sear, but I really don't want to change more than two settings at once. On this gun, there are six total and they all interact.

I'm pretty sure there is a magical order to make these adjustments, and I just don't have it right. The manual has some specific steps:

1 -#22 (trigger stop) back off 3 turns
2 -#20 (trigger slack length) ["slack" means first stage, I conclude]
3 -#21 (trigger point position) ["point" means second stage, ditto]
4 - #26 (trigger rod-to-sear clearance)
5 - #25 (trigger slack weight)
6 - #24 (trigger point weight)
7 - #22 (trigger stop)

Questions for anyone who knows:

- is the order above (in the manual) the best way to go about this?
- the manual wants the sear to release exactly at the "trigger point". Can the screw #26 clearance be adjusted to include a little more creep before the release? Or is that all on screw #21?
- what range of slackweight-to-pointweight give a "roll" setting?

I'll try to answer those myself, eventually. So far I have only begun to explore.

Froneck wrote:I did not say that if the pins were pressed into the frame it would contribute to sloppy movement, actually I agree that it would make a good pivot. However in my AW the pins are not pressed in, it's a part of the sear so that the sear and pivot pin is one piece. The pin then pivots in the frame and in my gun, new out of the box it was sloppy! I also mentioned that if the pin is pressed in and sear have a hole in it buying a new pin and sear and do what is required to install it will be a good upgrade, I just might do that with the Hammer sear if it's the same.

I checked all 5 variants of the AW93 schematics on FWB website and all have the pin listed as separate part.
If the pin would be part of the sear as you claim, I bet it would be sold as assembly under single part number.
You may have one of a kind pistols or lemon or you shot it so fast in rapid fire that the sears seized on you pins.

-TT- wrote:I'll try to answer those myself, eventually. So far I have only begun to explore.

Oh, it's much simpler than I feared. And it is absolutely possible to get a nice short crisp release, at least on my recent model.

But, all six screws need to be moved.  

More later.

Interesting!! I looked at the various parts list including older than my version and your right the sear is 2 pieces. Pivot pin and sear! However I can assure you mine is one piece! The diameter of the pivot is very small, probably less than 1/16", The top protrudes very little above the sear. One of the reasons I made  the top plate from Al. Bronze was to provide a bearing surface for the pin! Seems I have an oddball! No wonder I had problems!  As far as the Hammer sear, I never had it out so I simply assumed it was the same as the other sear.
 As I mentioned in another post my slide would not lock back reliably, one magazine was worse than the other. I tried various ways to get it to work. Removed the buffer spring, tried faster velocity ammo but nothing worked until one day I was looking at the gun with an empty magazine installed and noticed that when the slide went slightly beyond the notch for the catch the front of the notch would hit the slide stop forcing  it down along with the magazine follower, knob and spring. I filed the notch about 1/8" wider and my problem disappeared!
 Being my sear is one piece I would think it wise for those that are having a problem with trigger adjustment should check to see if they also have the one piece sear! It's possible that they were made one piece but changed! Some how a few could have gotten mixed in!
 I'm wondering if the pistol was assembled from spare parts! It was a trophy gun issued to the winner of the National Match. He didn't want it and I purchased in at a lower price. Odd you would think that a Trophy Pistol would be the best they could make since it was given to the best shooter.
 The plate I made cured the problem but I would like to replace the sear and Pin, where is the best place to buy the parts. I would also like to get another recoil spring and guide rod assembly. I have an issue that I think the slide is not closing all the way all the time. I cleaned the gun, brushed the bore so that the chamber was clean. Then oiled it well. Last match was local 25 yard Police L target fun match. I was using SK green box match special. every once in a while I could feel a low recoil, looking at the target I would have a very low impact at 6 o clock. Prior to that I had the same problem, when talking to the AMU gun smiths at Perry they said the recoil spring felt light. They thought the slide was not closing all the time.
 Here is what the AW looks like now, Aluma Black is wearing off, I'll have to remove all the Aluminum and Anodize it. I guess when I do that I'll look at the sear again. Right now I'm working on 1911 .22 conversion, will post a few photos of current progress.

Froneck wrote: I'm wondering if the pistol was assembled from spare parts! It was a trophy gun issued to the winner of the National Match.

Interesting history. That trigger is definitely a special item. It's got much more curve than the stock part. So it wouldn't surprise me if it had other tweaks.

FWB is not the type of company to build pistols from the spare parts bucket. If your sear is pressed onto the "axle" (what they call the pivot pin), and the frame is drilled to allow the pin to rotate, that was on purpose. On my gun, that pin is 2mm (.079") btw.

BTW that trigger is set really far forward! I don't think my finger would reach it in that location. Although, I have Rink grips not slabs on mine. I bet the pull feels quite different, even if the adjustments are the same. For example, my trigger, set at the back of the rail, will have very different leverage as it rotates.

-TT- just be careful not to go too light on the sear engagement as I achieved full auto (firing 3 shots with one trigger pull) then I backed off setscrew #26 1/8 of a turn from dead stop and the pistol would still double and now I have it set (backed out) at about 1/4 turn.
For replacement parts, I would contact Champion's Choice, Larry's Guns or Neal at ISS.

lalka686 wrote:-TT- just be careful not to go too light on the sear engagement as I achieved full auto (firing 3 shots with one trigger pull) then I backed off setscrew #26 1/8 of a turn from dead stop and the pistol would still double and now I have it set (backed out) at about 1/4 turn.
For replacement parts, I would contact Champion's Choice, Larry's Guns or Neal at ISS.

Indeed, that sear engagement is critical for safety. FWB insists on no gap, and any change to screw #20 affects it. So far I have found that one turn of screw #20 requires about 1/2 turn of screw #26 to maintain the engagement. After my experimenting, I agree that close-to-zero gap is not only safest it's also the best adjustment. You may want to pull the grip to take a closer look and see if you still have a gap even after the 1/4 turn.

I was going through some of my AW93 links and ran across: 

Feinwerksbau AW 93 pressure mechanism
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Farnenohlberg.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F01%2F02%2Ffeinwerksbau-aw-93-tryckmekanism%2F&edit-text=&act=url

Feinwerkbau AW 93 - construction pressure adjustment
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Farnenohlberg.wordpress.com%2F2004%2F06%2F01%2Ffeinwerkbau-aw-93-konstruktion-tryckjustering%2F

[ltr]AW93 Trigger Adjustments[/ltr]
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46983

Froneck wrote:Interesting!! I looked at the various parts list including older than my version and your right the sear is 2 pieces. Pivot pin and sear! However I can assure you mine is one piece! The diameter of the pivot is very small, probably less than 1/16", The top protrudes very little above the sear. One of the reasons I made  the top plate from Al. Bronze was to provide a bearing surface for the pin! Seems I have an oddball! No wonder I had problems!  As far as the Hammer sear, I never had it out so I simply assumed it was the same as the other sear.

Froneck,
I have to admit that you are right and I was wrong!
Yes, the sear pin (silver) is rotating in the frame holes and there is a slight movement/wobble of the pin on top (had to use magnifying glasses to see it). The hammer sear pin (black) is solidly pressed into frame and has no movement at all. I can post pictures ones I upload them to my computer.

-TT-
I have experimented last night with the spring to move it inwards and prevent the drag against grip. I cut 3 small tube beads out of electrical pin connector and insert them on the spring hook before hooking it to trigger bar hole from inside out. This moved the spring 2mm into the frame cavity and will eliminate any modification to grip. I bought new spring for the experiment and to my surprise, the new one is exactly 2 turn longer than my original one (11 coils instead of 9).

lalka686 wrote:the new one is exactly 2 turn longer than my original one (11 coils instead of 9).

Interesting! Is the wire diameter also different?

You may find the trigger pressure needs to be adjusted with screw #25 at the base of the trigger guard, right at the front edge of the grip/frontstrap. That setting is fairly safe to do by itself, it increases both first and second stage weight, and nothing else.

The forum has a very limited local attachment storage limit. You need to use the external hosting service with the "Host an image" button, or link to your own album somewhere on the web.

At least you can see the spring images in my previous post.
Thanks, Bernard

Froneck,
I have to admit that you are right and I was wrong!
Yes, the sear pin (silver) is rotating in the frame holes and there is a slight movement/wobble of the pin on top (had to use magnifying glasses to see it). The hammer sear pin (black) is solidly pressed into frame and has no movement at all. I can post pictures ones I upload them to my computer.

 Missed your post, Thought it was mine when I seen the AW.
 I like my trigger with slight movement but not much. Shooting slow fire would rather have very crisp but timed and rapid is a different story. It's good when shooting T. or R. fire to feel the trigger moving, it confirms something is happening and soon the gun will fire so I can keep concentrating on keeping the dot in the center of the bullseye. Too much movement slows rapid fire and too little it can't be felt. I loved the trigger I copied from The Baikal, it's soooo easy to adjust but Adam started shooting it. The trigger was why I purchased the AW and why I was disappointed in the trigger! But as with other guns I have I decided to adjust the trigger the way I like it even if I must change something. I played with the trigger for a while when I noticed (as I mentioned earlier) the transfer bar made contact at the top of the sear and I could see the sear moving but it was not moving on the bottom where the spring is connected. That's not possible since it should be pivoting on the pin then looking close I seen the pin move so the sear didn't pivot and held in place at the lower end by the spring. Eventually when the movement was enough so that the clearance was taken-up the sear would pivot and all happened as it should but the movement was greater that I liked.
 My pin is defiantly black on the top as seen in the photo But it's been quite a few years ago when I worked on the AW so my one piece memory could be wrong! I'll probably disassemble the AW after I get the .22 conversion built. Maybe sooner. I do know that the piece I made cured the problem! I would think that at the time if I had noticed the pin was fixed and the sear pivoting on it I would have made another pin that pressed into the frame, probably being as lazy as I am would have epoxied it or used loctite to hold it in place. As to the Hammer sear I can't remember it moving only that when I made that bronze plate that I could have extended the bronze to also support the hammer sear.

lalka686 wrote:... the new one is exactly 2 turn longer than my original one (11 coils instead of 9).

I had the grip off on mine today and it has the 11-turn spring. Mine is a 22xxx serial, so relatively recent, but the pistol is at least a few years old.

From your photo, the new spring is longer overall. Pretty sure you'll need to tighten #25 to compensate, assuming you want to keep the same weight.