Primer Seating in Progressive Press

I took my S&W Model 14 to the range today, shooting some of my rather old reloads, and then my new reloads in Starline Cases.  All the new ammo worked perfectly, but two of the older rounds loaded ok, but the cylinder "tightened up" as it rotated to get the next round in place.

A friend of mine sitting next to me has had the same problem - his revolver has practically zero space at the forcing cone, and if one of his primers isn't perfectly pressed into the case, the cylinder "binds" like mine does.

Sitting those two rounds on a flat surface, it was obvious that the primer was not flush with the bottom of the case, but the case barely rocked back and forth.  I've never had this problem with any of my other guns, but the Model 14 apparently has tighter tolerances.


As we discussed this after shooting for a few hours, the answer seemed to be pretty clear - the primer wasn't seated all the way.  The group suggested that I remove the primers before or after cleaning, then use my S&W "pocket brush" to clean out the opening.

This also got me thinking to a previous discussion I had about setting up my reloading press.  The press has a screw and lock nut that can limit the travel of the press on the "up-stroke" to seat the primer - or, I can loosen that up and seat the primers by "feel".


I haven't done anything yet - when I first got the RCBS Pro2000 press, I selected seating the primers by "feel", and never had a problem.  I suspect I should loosen the travel stop, and just do this by feel, like I used to.

(I asked about cleaning primer pockets long ago, and the responses were that it wasn't necessary.)

(I don't like the idea of cleaning after removing the primer, with the remote chance that the hole in the case could be plugged with media, and I might not catch it.)

I suspect that with the my new Starline brass, this won't be an issue.

So, my question - for those of you doing something similar, to you seat your primers by "feel", or with a mechanical stop for seating depth?  The last sentence of the instructions is what I think I should do again......

I am using Hornady LnL AP and seat primers by feel, but I have shimmed the shell plate and ram to very tight tolerance. Even slightly high primer cause the shell plate drag that detected quickly and I can turn shell plate back and re-seat the primer deeper.

Regardless of the method, the primer needs to be fully seated in the case. 

"Seating depth" as in any type of measurement or set distance isn't a factor.

The top of the primer should be at or below the back face of the brass. If it sits proud of the surface you can get slam fires in a semi-auto or difficulty indexing as you are getting in a revolver. Find out why they stick up and fix it. The most likely cause is not seating the primer all the way down. I've never seen brass with short primer pockets, but I suppose it's possible. More likely is a dirty primer pocket. A little dirt can make primer seating more difficult. If you seat by how much force you apply to the handle, it might fool you into thinking it's seated. If you seat by pressing until you get a firm stop then it may be dirt in the bottom of the primer pocket preventing the primer from fully seating.

Sometimes we don't get good pressure when seating. 
I load on a 550 and when seating, I give it a nice steady push. Firmly!
I mention this due to the fact that on a true progressive sometimes being in a hurry we don't get a full stroke on the machine.

Texasref wrote:.......I mention this due to the fact that on a true progressive sometimes being in a hurry we don't get a full stroke on the machine.

For a different reason, I think what you wrote is the likely problem.  I am going to change my "stop" setting today, so the only thing limiting seating should be my pressure on the primer setting lever.  Since the press punches out the old primer, I suspect the primer pocket will be clean - but next time I will load rounds one at a time, and look at the bottom before pressing in the new primer - I have no idea how clean or dirty it will look.

I am never, ever, in a hurry with reloading.  I think constantly about what I'm doing, and try to "feel" the press, to notice anything that ever feels "different".  I like the fact that my press is a progressive, I like the fact that it uses plastic strips with a primer in each pocket, not touching each other, and my new Redding dies do things my previous dies couldn't do.  My new "expansion die" not only bells the top of the case, but it slightly opens up the entire top area in the case, so new bullets drop in 1/4" or so with no pressure - it makes bullet seating easier and better.

One of my friends at the range uses a "Star press" which applies much more pressure to seat the primer.  For me, I "think" I'm applying enough pressure, but that's another possibility for my issue.  I watch all the videos about different presses - if my Pro2000 vanished, and I had to replace it, I don't think I know enough to get a Star, I have no desire to get a Dillon, no desire to get the new progressive presses from RCBS, and the only press that I've seen that I get excited about is the Hornady.  (I like what RCBS says about their new progressive presses, but the user feedback is horrible.)

My choice is limited, because people here have convinced me to seat and crimp in separate stations.  If I want to continue to use the dies I have now, I need a 5-station press.

The only un-solved issue I'm sure I still have, is it isn't easy to visibly see the powder in each 38 shell before placing the bullet on top.  I check the first two or three rounds, then trust that the press is doing the rest correctly.

The 550 doesn't have a primer seating stop, so I guess I've been seating them "by hand" for thousands of rounds.  I don't decap before cleaning the brass. 
Kurt

(I think on the 550, the powder drop is combined with the the resizing station #2, which is also where the primer is seated?  I built a 550 for my brother maybe six years ago, until we got to where the primer seating parts never worked as they should.  I ran out of time, and got him a hand primer, meaning he has no more need of the primer tube.  I don't think it is possible to use the custom Redding resize die, which does a lot more than just bell the case.  I think that's the way the Dillon works....station 1 resizing, #2 expansion/primer/powder, #3 bullet seating, and #4 crimp.  I got snarled at by various people for may trying to seat and crimp in one station, and finally gave up and accepted their advice.  I will with my brother in two or three weeks, and may try once again to get his 550 working again.  Maybe I'll make a video and post it here, or send to Dillon, to find out what I did wrong.....)

Anyway, I think you've been seating the primers "by hand", which is what I did originally, and will go back to now.  I guess I will start checking my primers for a while, to make sure they don't extend beyond the case.

My friend at the range is using a single station press, RCBS A1 Big Max, so he doesn't have these issues.  I've also got a Big Max, and one of the manual primer inserters.

I'll go watch the video on the 550 again, just in case he wants me to try to get it going.

I also reload pistol on a Pro2000 - just have to be sure that the limit screw is set and you push the lever all the way forward to prime. As others have noted, primers should always be at least a couple thousandths sub flush.

I use one of the Shockbottle 100 cavity case gages to inspect each and every round I load. They're a little pricey but it's nice to put 100 finished rounds in at once, and run my fingers over all of the primers. It's easy to detect if one is a little bit proud. I usually catch a round or three in a ~500 round loading session that either don't plunk easy in/out of the gage, or has a primer that needs another push. Never ever have problems with rounds chambering in any gun.

I hand prime 38SPL. Especially for M14 because if the trigger is light it needs to perfect. Also check your mainspring sometimes the screw backs out or people put a primer cup at the end of the set screw to lighten the trigger. 

Wolf Primers, S&B and Magnum are a no go for M14. 

Last M14 it could be a timing issue if the strike happens one particular cylinder.

pgg wrote:....I use one of the Shockbottle 100 cavity case gages to inspect each and every round I load. They're a little pricey but it's nice to put 100 finished rounds in at once, and run my fingers over all of the primers. It's easy to detect if one is a little bit proud.....

First I've heard of this device - went to look it up on the internet, and on YouTube:
     https://dawsonprecision.com/shockbottle-case-gauges/
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vre5hDCBFQ4&t=705s

I use boxes of 50, but I think I can do the same "finger test" on a plastic box of 50 rounds of either 38 or 45 and apparently this gage isn't made for 38 Special.

• If you do find a round with a primer that needs to go in just a bit more, do you place it back in station #2 and run the primer inserter up one more time to give it a bit of a push?
  
• It seems like this should be safe to do, as that's how the primers get seated initially - but I think starting now, I'll do this by "feel", and make sure I give an adequate push to fully seat the primers.
  

My friend sent me a match barrel to check my loaded ammo.  I know that takes longer, but (for 45) I've gotten into the habit of doing it.

rich.tullo wrote:...... it could be a timing issue if the strike happens one particular cylinder.....

Out of perhaps 40 rounds, only two had this issue, and they had the issue regardless of which chamber I put them into.  
The "fingernail test" made it obvious the primers were not flush.
Standing the rounds on the table, the rocked back and forth on the primer - not very much, but obviously too much.

I should add this was with the same cases I've been reloading for five or six years.  I bought Starline brass to replace them, and all my Starline rounds worked perfectly.

mikemyers wrote:

• If you do find a round with a primer that needs to go in just a bit more, do you place it back in station #2 and run the primer inserter up one more time to give it a bit of a push?
  
• It seems like this should be safe to do, as that's how the primers get seated initially - but I think starting now, I'll do this by "feel", and make sure I give an adequate push to fully seat the primers.
  

Yes, I just put them back on the press and seat the primer fully. I don't think there's any risk of setting one off, but I wear eye pro any time I do anything with primers anyway.

EGW make a similar in 50 hole size.  I have them for 556 and 9mm.  Soon in 45 and 38 special.

https://www.egwguns.com/case-gauge-ammo-checker-357-magnum-50-hole-works-for-38-special

pgg wrote:........I just put them back on the press and seat the primer fully. I don't think there's any risk of setting one off, but I wear eye pro any time I do anything with primers anyway....

If by the time you notice the problem, it's a loaded round, do you still put it back in the press to seat it fully?

Mike, the Dillon decaps, resizes, then primes the case in stage 1. Die 2 is bell and powder. 3 is bullet seat. 4 is crimp. Aren’t most progressive presses this way? Where do you get your information?
Kurt

mikemyers wrote:

pgg wrote:........I just put them back on the press and seat the primer fully. I don't think there's any risk of setting one off, but I wear eye pro any time I do anything with primers anyway....

If by the time you notice the problem, it's a loaded round, do you still put it back in the press to seat it fully?

Yes.

kjanracing wrote:Mike, the Dillon decaps, resizes, then primes the case in stage 1. Die 2 is bell and powder. 3 is bullet seat. 4 is crimp. Aren’t most progressive presses this way? Where do you get your information?
Kurt

It's been too long, and I don't remember how I set up my brother's 550, but after long talks with the tech support people at Redding, I bought their "professional die set", including a very special "expansion die".  There is a "plunger" that goes into the brass case, and for a specified depth, it increases the inside diameter.  Then at the end, there is a "flange" that bells the end of the case.  This solved a problem I had with lead 38 Special bullets "shaving" some lead as the bullet was seated.  With the new die, when I insert the bullet into the case, it drops about half way into the shell with no effort.  This has it "started" and aligned perfectly with the case, so when seating bullets, it's almost impossible to "shave" any lead - not to mention it takes less pressure.  Then the Redding crimp die does the rest of the job.

I think this image will explain this far better than I can:

There's no reason the powder measure can't go on the removable die plate on a Pro2000.

The RCBS Uniflow powder measure can be used with a powder-thru expander that bells the case mouth in an adjustable fashion. So you can bell the mouth and drop powder in one station.

On my Pro2000
1 - resize/deprime
2 - prime, bell, powder drop
3 - lockout die
4 - bullet feeder die
5 - bullet seater

Dirty fired brass --> wet tumble with primer in --> one pass on the press --> go to the range to turn loaded ammo into dirty fired brass

I don't need a post-size station because I only use jacketed bullets and don't bell enough to require it. If I was seating cast bullets I'd get rid of the bullet feeder.

I will never reload pistol on a progressive without a lockout die. That's a non-negotiable point with me. I'd buy a press with more stations if I got to the point where there wasn't room for it.

pgg wrote:.......I will never reload pistol on a progressive without a lockout die. That's a non-negotiable point with me. I'd buy a press with more stations if I got to the point where there wasn't room for it.

Everything is compromises....

I did buy the "powder through" parts, so I can move the powder drop to station #2, and with the newly free station use the Lock-Out die, but then I can't use the Redding competition dies (I suspect for lead bullets, but that's the only kind I load).

RCBS now has presses with more stations, but after reading the user feedback, that's off my list.  I haven't found a single person who was satisfied with it.

I have a "non-negotiable point" of my own, to not have a primer tube sitting in front of me.  RCBS solved this so nicely.


I watched the Hornady video one more time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MTiuEBzak) and in today's world, if I was buying a press, I suspect this is what I would end up with despite the primer tube.

As to the Lock-Out Die, for the past several months, I did use it, and my rounds went through all my stations, then needed to be crimped on another pass through a press, in this case my RCBS A1 Big Max.  If I had the space, and the $$$, I would buy the Hornady in addition to my Pro2000.  Then I would have ten stations total to work with, I could use the Pro2000 for inserting primers, and use the Hornady perhaps to punch out the old primers, and later to seat the bullets.  

(My friend Dave reminds me I'm reloading in my air conditioned apartment, minimal humidity, and there should be no need to check every round, either by looking, or with the LockOut die.  That's what I'm doing right now.  I've got the auto-index on the Pro2000, so there is no way to get a double load, which would be my most scary situation.  If I hadn't bought the auto-index kit, I would absolutely agree with what you wrote, even if I was able to see into the rounds before covering them up with the next bullet.  I now have two Lock-Out dies, but no station free to use them....)

Beware of thinking something is impossible 

On the autoindexing Pro2000, pilot error can result in cases running up into the same die twice, if you don't go all the way down. Why would a person do that? Distraction, stopping partway to manually tip a bullet back upright on a case mouth, pull a case, clear a primer jam, etc.

"Pay attention and don't do dumb stuff" is good advice and words to live by, but humans gonna human. 

I know I'm in the minority in valuing a lockout/cop die to such a degree. The risks I deal with in my day job have taught me that system/engineering safety controls should always always be used to the maximum extent possible, and to expect people (including me) to miss things they should be looking at. Just the way I think about doing anything that involves risk and a human.

I am also sad the APS primer system is now a relic of old RCBS presses, out of production. I too have never been pleased with the thought of having stacks of primers in metal tubes, aka pipe bombs, laying around.

And unfortunately it seems the prochucker presses are junk.

Mike:  I’ve never had a primer tube explode, but I do know a person who has when she worked for a small commercial reloader.  It was in a 1050:Dillon that was manually operated.  All that happened was the primers and a few small bits hit the ceiling, no other damage or injuries.  It did take a while for her to regain her composure, but that’s all.

Wobbley wrote:........All that happened was the primers and a few small bits hit the ceiling, no other damage or injuries..........

I know I'll get in trouble for saying this, but here goes.  About the time I first joined this forum, an experienced reloader had his primer "explosion" on a larger Dillon.  He knew what he was doing, or at least thought he did, he sounded infinitely more experienced than me, but something happened on his press that he didn't recognize as an issue, and it went BOOM.  He posted photos of everything, including his hand, as I recall before and after his visits to the emergency room.  I know I can find the thread again - already did that once - but anyone here can find it.

Your friend got lucky, no other damage or injuries.  Since I always reload with safety glasses on, if anything were to go wrong, that would be important.  From that moment on, I thought of primer tubes as pipe bombs, but even 40 years ago, with my manual primer inserting tool from RCBS, I added the primers one at a time manually, and never used the tube that came with the device.

A friend of mine at the range told me about an old press manufacturer who went out of business, rather than risk a customer getting hurt, and the following legal issues.

Over the past six years or so, there haven't been that many posts here about primers going off, but of the ones I'm aware of, they were all with Dillon.  

My brother bought a 550 (because it was cheap) and we never got his primer feeder working correctly, and even when we were trying to set it up, we never put in more than five primers.  To me, the whole concept is like keeping a Cobra as a pet snake.  .....and I absolutely KNOW I'm exaggerating, and a zillion and one people use these presses without issues, but in my mind, the potential for a problem is there.  To me, your friend is lucky.

I figure reloading and shooting are potentially dangerous, if one doesn't follow the safety rules.  To me, those rules include "stay away from primer tubes".   OK, you can all dump on me now.


Heck, even the concept of seating a primer a little deeper when it's in a loaded round sounds like something I should never do, but from what I've read up above, maybe it's not as dangerous as I suspected.  I'd like to think that I'm exaggerating the danger of primer tubes, but I keep reading where experienced reloaders had an issue.  Escaping without injury is due to "luck".  The "incident" should be prevented, one way or another.....

We had a shooter blow up a revolver at our indoor range. Tore his hand up real good.

He tells everyone that revolvers are inherently dangerous and not to use them.

2.5 Bullseye blows up model 14’s all the time under 148 gr HBWC’s

If you had to hear the list of potential side affects, including death, I heard for knee surgery, and applied it to your car, you’d walk.

Of course that could result in heart attacks, strokes, or getting hit by buses, etc.