.41 Remington Magnum

[ltr]I intended to shoot my Colt SAA for the revolver matches this summer in Ohio, but I came to the conclusion that I cannot cycle it one-handed efficiently and safely in timed and rapid fire, so I will take my other revolver: a Ruger Redhawk in .41 mag.
 
Typical loads are too powerful for Bullseye shooting so I have been looking for a combination of powder and bullet resulting in velocities well below 900 fps.
 
Lee Modern Reloading has data for 215gr lead bullets and Clays: min 4.0 gr (825 fps) - max 5.2 gr (979 fps).
I never used this powder. Can I safely explore the 3.5 - 4.0 gr range?
 
I came across several posts on various forums from shooters using HP-38/W231 with 210-220 gr lead bullets in the 6 gr-8 gr range, with one chrono (6.5 gr, 932 fps).
Looking for further information about that, I stumbled upon a website (http://www.gmdr.com/lever/41rm215_dat.htm) with an interesting piece of data:

 
The 4.0 gr load may be exactly what I am looking for, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else.
This is 2 grains lower than the minimum referenced by random guys on random forums. Has anyone here tested something like that?
 
Would you have another suggestion with what I have at home? Powders on hand are N310, HP-38, Clays, 2400 and N32C and the bullets are Brazos 215gr SWC bb.[/ltr]

If it was me, I’d look to find data for the N320 as well.  As for your question.  231/HP38 do load down reasonably well.  Looking at old Winchester data for comparisons, 231 loads down reasonably well in 40 S&W and 10mm, which are SOMEWHAT close.  So I think something in the 5-6 grains of 231 would get you somewhere close to 850 fps.  The same pamphlet lists a max charge wit a 210 grain lead bullet as 7.4 grains which makes the start load 6.6.  So I’d start THERE and work DOWN 6.4, 6.2, 6.0 etc.,  stopping at 850-900 fps.

Wobbley wrote:The same pamphlet lists a max charge wit a 210 grain lead bullet as 7.4 grains which makes the start load 6.6.  So I’d start THERE and work DOWN 6.4, 6.2, 6.0 etc.,  stopping at 850-900 fps.

Thank you, this was the kind of information I was looking for, and I will do just that.
May I ask: for what reason would you stop at 850-900 fps?

I don't have N320 and I doubt I could find some before I leave for Cardinal.

I’d stop at 850 to keep the likelihood of a squib to zero.  Even fast burning pistol powders require a minimum pressure level to burn effectively and that seems to be around 8000 PSI.  231 is especially fussy at low pressures.  So if pressures get too low, your 4 grain charge might start acting like a 2 grain charge, without you knowing about it.

If recoil still remains an issue, you should look at 180-190 grain bullets.  Magma has a 190 SWC plain base.

Thank you again, I learned something today.

Here are my results, maybe it will save someone some time someday?

Jambat wrote:Here are my results, maybe it will save someone some time someday?

Thanks for sharing! Which bullet did you end up testing, and how did they shoot? Do you plan to compete with it, from your trials?

I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade here, but for Distinguished revolver isn’t the only legal gun, one which which chamber a 158g 38 special cartridge?  

I realize that Perry and Cardinal will run under CMP rules.   I haven’t looked those up yet.

Schaumannk wrote:I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade here, but for Distinguished revolver isn’t the only legal gun, one which which chamber a 158g 38 special cartridge?  

I realize that Perry and Cardinal will run under CMP rules.   I haven’t looked those up yet.

The quick over view of CMP revolver rules is any caliber 32-45 with metallic sights and any safe ammo. The full rule set is more specific but this match opens up some cool options.

A quick check on the Hodgdon Reloading Data center shows your 215 gr lead bullet with a starting charge of 4.0 gr of Clays at 825 fps and 24,600 CUPS with a max load at 5.2 gr at 979 fps and 26,700 CUPS.  When in doubt ALWAYS check out the Hodgdon Reloading Data center for any of the Hodgdon's powders (Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester).  Wow, I went back and re-read your post and the data you list from the Lee Modern Reloading is the exact same as listed by the manufacturer of Clays.

I understand that Lee doesn't develop loads, they aggregate them, without reference to the source.

I use 4.0 of Bullseye for target loads in the 44 mag with good effect.
This is with 240 gr lead. You could also seat swc flush and have the equivalent case volume of a 45,acp.

I think you do do something SIMILAR as well, just an opinion since I don't have a 41. Faster powders like BE, 700x, Red Dot are a better choice for these loadings. The latter two better due to higher bulk. Same charge levels.

While I do all the above with 44 mag, l can't guarantee your results nor take responsibility for your chouces. Hope this helps

This is all interesting.  I have a S&W 57 and a 58 that I have never fired.  They are both near collectable condition.  I was always going to use the 58 for an anti bear gun, but never got around to it.  Since then I have a 44 Ruger Redhawk.  I really doubt I need it either.

Mine is pretty. And it gets shot a lot. You can't hurt them shooting them. Fun gun. Let me know if you need ammo  Jack.


My Anti bear receipt.  22.0 gr Win 296, 210 gr XTP, 1631 fps. Not a BE load. Well, it could be. But you have to sing Macho man while shooting

Len

I have 400-500 each of brass and bullets.  And lots of WLP and a few other MLP primers
4 cans H110, and some Unique and 2400.  No 296. 
I should be ok if I ever have time to load and shoot.

Schaumannk wrote:I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade here, but for Distinguished revolver isn’t the only legal gun, one which which chamber a 158g 38 special cartridge? 

Damn, my heart skipped a beat.

chiz1180 wrote:The quick over view of CMP revolver rules is any caliber 32-45 with metallic sights and any safe ammo. The full rule set is more specific but this match opens up some cool options.

There it goes again.

Will the referee use a .38 or .45 scoring plug?

I used Brazos .411 215 gr HiTek coated SWC bevel base.
This recipe is exactly what I was looking for, with a pleasant recoil that doesn't send the pistol far off target.
I still need to test it at 50 yds though.

Jambat wrote:

Schaumannk wrote:I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade here, but for Distinguished revolver isn’t the only legal gun, one which which chamber a 158g 38 special cartridge? 

Damn, my heart skipped a beat.

chiz1180 wrote:The quick over view of CMP revolver rules is any caliber 32-45 with metallic sights and any safe ammo. The full rule set is more specific but this match opens up some cool options.

There it goes again.

Will the referee use a .38 or .45 scoring plug?

I used Brazos .411 215 gr HiTek coated SWC bevel base.
This recipe is exactly what I was looking for, with a pleasant recoil that doesn't send the pistol far off target.
I still need to test it at 50 yds though.

Good question.  Let’s hope you don’t have any close calls since the ref won’t have a scoring plug for it.   
I really hope your gun shoots at 50 yards.  It is, by no means, a given.  

You might want to develop two loads one for the short line, and another for the long line based on performance.   It is a good idea to use Federal primers if you are going to need to shoot double action in rapid fire.  

Just for versatility it might be a good idea to get a 38 with a target hammer and trigger which will open up the NRA distinguished revolver program to you as well.

Just for versatility it might be a good idea to get a 38 with a target hammer and trigger which will open up the NRA distinguished revolver program to you as well.

I wish I could, but my time in the US comes to an end and getting a new gun now just to sell it less than 1 year later makes no sense.

Also, the places I shoot most of the time do not have DR matches.
On occasion, a friend of mine kindly lets me shoot his revolver for DR matches, but we do not see the same thing and I spend half my match trying to find out where it shoots.
This time, I decided to bring my own. I am seriously considering shooting standard .41 Magnum loads for the long line, while singing Macho Man of course. But my singing is so terrible I may be disqualified.

Jambat wrote:

Just for versatility it might be a good idea to get a 38 with a target hammer and trigger which will open up the NRA distinguished revolver program to you as well.

I wish I could, but my time in the US comes to an end and getting a new gun now just to sell it less than 1 year later makes no sense.

Also, the places I shoot most of the time do not have DR matches.
On occasion, a friend of mine kindly lets me shoot his revolver for DR matches, but we do not see the same thing and I spend half my match trying to find out where it shoots.
This time, I decided to bring my own. I am seriously considering shooting standard .41 Magnum loads for the long line, while singing Macho Man of course. But my singing is much worse than my shooting. People may complain.

I know how that goes.  Am looking at moving back to Japan in seven months.  Will still have a house here and can arrange to be here for three to four months a year for shooting but no guns in Japan.

I handloaded 300 rounds, 4.0 gr Clays behind a Brazos .411 215 gr HiTek coated SWC bevel base and a WLP primer, then shot 10 of those through my chrono with a 7.5" Redhawk:


They are a pleasure to shoot, and I am satisfied with how they perform at 50 yds:


All those rounds went BOOM, but one went "PLOP" or "BUP", maybe "PLUP" and hit the very bottom of the target. Maybe I should have used Federal primers.

Might want to up the charge to 4.5gr

I have been thinking about this incident, and I have an hypothesis.
My first 30 testing rounds were loaded with 4.0gr Clays which I weighed manually.
For those new rounds, including the BLUP, I used my powder measure.

Clays does not measure consistently through my Redding 3BR. As a matter of fact, this is the worst powder I ever used in this regard.

It is shaped as very thin disks, and those have a way to get below, around and escape the plexiglass cylinder bottom of my powder measure when I put the plastic lid back on. They blow out. And they stick to everything, including the powder funnel: tap on it with a pencil and a bunch will fall down.
Even though I used masking tape to seal the cylinder to the lower part of the powder measure, I had never seen my desk getting so covered in powder like that after a reloading session with any other powder, maybe HP-38 excepted.

I take a lot of measurements when I start dealing with a new powder: I drop and weight dozens of loads in a beaker on the range of the meter I expect to use:

I used index 46.5 to load those rounds, and according to my measurements with this setting the powder mass is in the [3.675gr ; 4.13 gr]. That sucks.
My hypothesis is that one of my cases received an extremely low mass of powder.
My conclusion is that for Bullseye purposes, Clays should measured by mass and certainly not by volume.

Of course, this is open to criticism and discussion.

You have to remember that Clays (and Red Dot, and even WST) are primarily shotgun powders.  Normal loading tools for these have much larger metering chambers, the powders need to be bulkier, and shotguns tend to be a gpbit more forgiving of charge weight variations.  As good as your Redding 3BR measure is, a dedicated pistol metering measure like a RCBS little dandy or Hornady measure with the pistol drum might do better.