No Shooter Classification @ Perry

First topic message reminder :

Was anyone expecting to shoot a 2700 match without shooter classifications?

And that is exactly what they did. Read the match bulletin

OK, if I may introduce a modicum of civility and an observation here.  (Scrape, scrape, scrape.... as Cecil slowly drags his soapbox to the corner of Passion and Reality)

What started as a decent question and probably a misunderstanding has evolved into some comments (on this topic and some others) that I don't think are entirely appropriate for this forum or at least representative of the character I expected from our members.  But who am I to say what's appropriate, just ask my wife.

What I will suggest is that everyone take a minute and think about the tremendous opportunity available to all the shooters, present and future, competitive or plinkers.   There are now two organizations at a national level that have championship precision (American anyway) pistol matches.  Each of which has way more participants than the ISSF / Olympic type pistol matches in the US.

That means there are two venues to attract more shooters, have more matches, get more people involved and promote the sport and gun ownership.  ONCE AGAIN, THAT IS A GOOD THING!

Yes, things can be improved at both venues and organizations. but anybody that has ill wishes for either of these organizations or thinks there should be an "either or" solution is being extremely short sighted and might as well sign up with the people that don't want us to shoot competitively or shoot casually or even have guns at all.  The death of one will only hasten the death of the other, no matter what any of us thinks about either organization.  

The things each of the organizations can do (read the legislation and charters) complement each other more than they detract.  And anyone, even those within those organizations, should recognize that for the betterment of us all and to help us continue to enjoy our choose sport.  

Just remember, the more we are divided, the weaker we all become.

So, y'all try to see the big picture and please quit bashing each other.  
  
CR

I just perused the program AND The entry form.  The program DOES. NOT STATE that any matches will be segregated by classification.  Nor does the entry form have anyplace to specify a classification of any kind.  IMO, the only match that might be segregated by classification is the 2700.  Historically, the President’s, the NTI, the EIC etc, have never been classified matches.  So the CMP gets poor grade for not having something they never said they would?

What would you think if the CMP abandoned NRA-style classifications and just ran the 2700 match at Camp Perry on the Lewis classification system?

The Lewis system takes every shooter's score, ranks them, then divides the total number of shooters by the number of classes to set the number of shooters in each class.

For instance, in a match with 440 shooters and 4 classes, shooters # 1, 2 and 3 would get awards for the first quartile class, numbers 111, 112 and 113 would get awards for the second quartile class, and so on.

The advantages would be administrative simplicity and a lower risk of sandbagging.

Whilst I like the fairness and elimination of sandbagging in the Lewis System proposed by Orpanaut - I am also selfishly not preferring it to an NRA style classification system. As a Master, and assuming I shoot at a decent level, I would therefore almost certainly be in the 1st quartile - but there is a huge gap between typical Master level shooters and the High Masters (at least those who are current and at or close to the top of their form). So there would be a very slim chance of any Master getting an award.

With the current NRA system at least you know exactly where the "lines in the sand" are drawn and have clear objectives to aim for during training. The downside, as my mentor has reminded me on numerous occasion's, is that that also engenders "shooting for points" rather than just trying to shoot your very best. So be it, but I still prefer the NRA style classification system, even if it takes a little while for the CMP to figure it out.

Frankly, as several others have commented, why is is so difficult for the CMP just to check each Competitor's current and valid NRA Classification Card? Having stood/sat in the line for 2 hours at Perry that should have been automatic!

If it takes 360 shots to establish a classification and most shooters only shoot a CMP-run 2700 at Perry, won't most of us go into the 2022 National Matches still unclassified?

Are you forgetting that Cardinal was a CMP registered event? Are you also not going to shoot a single CMP event in the next 350 days? 
Come on now. It’s really not that hard.

Fully agree with Cecil and couldn’t have said it better myself. Two is better than one and much better than none. But remember, the CMP stepped up with their own 2700 when the NRA left Camp Perry. They are still growing it and figuring their own way out. If they wanted it to be exactly the same they probably could’ve just ran a sanctioned NRA Camp Perry 2700 before NTI/ P100. But the CMP is run by members that have our best interests in mind first and foremost. That was a huge complaint two years ago with the NRA. So my humble suggestion is that if you disliked any part of it or have comments or suggestions for how it can be improved to send an email to the CMP. You won’t find a better crew and they are extremely responsive, I guarantee your thoughts wouldn’t fall on deaf ears.

Orpanaut wrote:If it takes 360 shots to establish a classification and most shooters only shoot a CMP-run 2700 at Perry, won't most of us go into the 2022 National Matches still unclassified?

Does the "Pistol warm-up match" not count toward classification, like the NRA prelim matches do? That would make for the full 360.

e) Classification System Use. Sponsors of CMP-sanctioned pistol matches may use the CMP Competitor Classification System as a basis for providing awards. When the Classification System is used, this must be announced in the Match rogram. When a competitor’s entry in a match is confirmed, the Statistical Officer may do an online lookup to confirm the competitor’s current classification. When there are fewer than six (6) competitors in a classification, match sponsors may combine that class with the next higher classification.
f) Classification Reciprocity. Competitors who do not have a CMP classification, but who have an NRA classification, may elect to compete with their current NRA classification. After a competitor establishes a CMP classification, they may continue to elect to compete with an NRA classification if it is higher than their CMP classification, but they may not compete with an NRA classification that is lower than their CMP classification.
g) Unclassified Competitors. Competitors who do not have a pistol classification (CMP or NRA) must compete in the Master Class for their first competition, or a Match Program may provide for a separate category for unclassified competitors.


So, it would have been required to be mentioned in the program.
It allows for NRA classifications to be used.
And it only requires a minimal number of shots to get classified.

Anybody ever read these rule books???

-TT- wrote:

Orpanaut wrote:If it takes 360 shots to establish a classification and most shooters only shoot a CMP-run 2700 at Perry, won't most of us go into the 2022 National Matches still unclassified?

Does the "Pistol warm-up match" not count toward classification, like the NRA prelim matches do? That would make for the full 360.

Read the rule book, again.

james r chapman wrote:

-TT- wrote:

Orpanaut wrote:If it takes 360 shots to establish a classification and most shooters only shoot a CMP-run 2700 at Perry, won't most of us go into the 2022 National Matches still unclassified?

Does the "Pistol warm-up match" not count toward classification, like the NRA prelim matches do? That would make for the full 360.

Read the rule book, again.

The question was about next year's event, so, I thought I did. Sorry, I thought most shooters did the warm-up event too, meaning they would have shot 360 by 2022.

Don’t need 360.

Classification Calculations. CMP Pistol Classifications are based on the competitor’s current 10-shot average for a minimum of 30 shots that were recorded after 1 January 2018. After a competitor has a minimum of 30 recorded shots in their 10-shot average will be computed by considering the most recent recorded 30, 40 or 90-shot event scores or partial event scores (Rule 3.1.5 course of fire reductions and the deletion of sub-normal scores). When the most recent recorded scores total 300 or more shots, the oldest recorded scores will no longer be considered, provided scores for at least 300 recorded shots are considered. Classifications will automatically be updated as soon as additional match scores are recorded. Any classification changes will be displayed in the CMP Competitor Classification database and become effective immediately. Classifications may go up or down until 300 shots are recorded. After at least 300 shots are recorded, classifications will not go down regardless of the competitor’s current average unless a competitor requests that CMP Competitions consider a downward classification for them based on the competitor having a consistent lower average.
d) Current Classifications. A competitor’s current classification is the classification displayed in the CMP Competitor Classification database. Competitor Classifications are available for online look-ups by the competitor or match sponsors. CMP Pistol Classification scores are shown in the chart.

Danehogle wrote:Are you forgetting that Cardinal was a CMP registered event? Are you also not going to shoot a single CMP event in the next 350 days? 
Come on now. It’s really not that hard.

It may not be that hard for you.  In Missouri I have only 2 clubs with active Precision Pistol matches and BOTH of them shoot only NRA matches.  Of those 2 clubs both are a 2-3 hour drive depending on traffic.  For me to get to a CMP registered match is beyond the limits that I will travel (4 hours plus).  So I will ask the question about Cardinal.  Since you state that it was a CMP match did you guys pay awards for class winners?  If you did, how did you handle the shooters who may or may not had a CMP classification?  Just asking since I seem to be in the hot seat I might as well stay there!

See above about NRA classifications in CMP matches.

Just a suggestion

Yes Cardinal had classes, and so did the Triple crown
https://www.thecardinalcenter.com/

I am still getting used to this brave new world of the CMP sanctioning matches other than service pistol.

My plan is to shoot the matches that I can, when I can, regardless of whether they're run by the CMP or the NRA, and I'll let the classification chips fall (or not) where they will.

For what its worth, a competitors classification is their responsibility to obtain.

When the CMP announced 2700's with classifications the match directors in Texas immediately began running sanctioned CMP 2700's. We advertised them heavily to get shooters a CMP classification and many took advantage of that. All shooters across the US had ample time before this year's National Championships to obtain a CMP classification. If they didn't it just wasn't important to them and they can shoot Master/Unclassified. 

Hopefully, for next years National Championships, the CMP will have the 2700 and Match Pistol Teams separated by classification.

Good luck to those guys in Texas or wherever. There have been no CMP sanctioned matches (other than EIC - AFAIK) anywhere on the West Coast or within 1,000 miles of me so far. And I've not heard of any interest in switching from NRA to CMP over here.

But that is all academic now, I've shot Cardinal twice and Perry once, so I guess that I am fully certified (many folks have opined that I deserve to be certified )

regardless, you can use your NRA classification if it is not lower than CMP.

james r chapman wrote:regardless, you can use your NRA classification if it is not lower than CMP.

That really is the whole point I am trying to make.  Just follow the rules!!!!!!!

Allen Barnett wrote:

james r chapman wrote:regardless, you can use your NRA classification if it is not lower than CMP.

That really is the whole point I am trying to make.  Just follow the rules!!!!!!!

Can you site which rule they are not following, or are you making assumptions?

For the record here is what the rule book says on classifications, 2020-2021 Rulebook

3.11.4 CMP Competitor Classification System (page 31)

Classification System Use. Sponsors of CMP-sanctioned pistol matches may use the CMP Competitor Classification System as a basis for providing awards. When the Classification System is used, this must be announced in the Match Program. When a competitor’s entry in a match is confirmed, the Statistical Officer may do an online lookup to confirm the competitor’s current classification. When there are fewer than six (6) competitors in a classification, match sponsors may combine that class with the next higher classification.

chiz1180 wrote:

Allen Barnett wrote:

james r chapman wrote:regardless, you can use your NRA classification if it is not lower than CMP.

That really is the whole point I am trying to make.  Just follow the rules!!!!!!!

Can you site which rule they are not following, or are you making assumptions?

For the record here is what the rule book says on classifications, 2020-2021 Rulebook

3.11.4 CMP Competitor Classification System (page 31)

Classification System Use. Sponsors of CMP-sanctioned pistol matches may use the CMP Competitor Classification System as a basis for providing awards. When the Classification System is used, this must be announced in the Match Program. When a competitor’s entry in a match is confirmed, the Statistical Officer may do an online lookup to confirm the competitor’s current classification. When there are fewer than six (6) competitors in a classification, match sponsors may combine that class with the next higher classification.

I quoted the complete rule.
I maintain the CMP did exactly what their program stated. No classifications.