Irons vs Dot For Accuracy

First topic message reminder :

Assuming a shooter has good vision to see both well, which has the higher ceiling, irons or dot?

Discuss!

CR10X wrote:........A better "test" is to bench the gun with as perfect sight alignment as you can achieve and while focusing on the sharp outline of the front sight, move the center of the aiming area to the 3:00 position on the black bullseye.  That means the right side of the front sight is on the right edge of the black.  Then do the same thing with the aiming area at the 9:00 position on the black bullseye, left side of the front sight on the left side of the black....... Correctly performed at 25 yards both shots will produce a 10 or better.  This means perfect alignment with the wobble in the black will get you a 10. ......

So don't worry about what misalignment might do or where the wobble is exactly.  You already know where the misaligned shot goes. (Not where you wanted it to...duh....)  

You should already have been seeing what happens with misaligned shots for a while if you have been correctly calling your shots.  You should have that unwanted memory of seeing the front sight in an incorrect position in the rear notch and noticed that you shot an 8 or worse.  And we don't want to create any more of those memories than we have to.  (And bad memories are hardest to forget.) If not, then go back to step one - learn to correctly and consistently call the shot.  

So, dam it, don't do it on purpose.  As a matter of fact, sit there at the bench and work on perfect sight alignment all the way through the shot process so you can really see and reinforce what you want to do. 

My eye no longer can focus, so I will see a reasonably sharp front sight, with everything else less sharp.  (...and I've always got my "floaters" doing their thing, making anything in front of them less sharp, until I flick my eyes one way or another to get them to temporarily move out of the way.)


Your "better test" has me aiming the gun by looking at the target, which I've been learning/struggling not to do.  I do see the target, without concentrating on it, but 95% of my concentration is on sight alignment.  I figure that if my sight alignment is good, it will be a good shot, 

......and after endless "trying" I now usually remember the sight alignment the instant the gun fired.  Thanks to you, two years ago, I can now "call my shots" reasonably well.

Your last suggestion is what I currently try to do, have the sights lined up properly as I lower the gun until it is aligned with the target.

I'm going to try this once more.  I answered your question about how to test. 

Your "better test" has me aiming the gun by looking at the target, which I've been learning/struggling not to do.  I do see the target, without concentrating on it, but 95% of my concentration is on sight alignment.  I figure that if my sight alignment is good, it will be a good shot, 

 
(I went back, highlighted, bolded and put in red the words "bench the gun" in the post.) 

I didn't definitely did not say look at the target while completing the shot process.  I said impose your sight alignment on one edge of the black while benching the gun.  Then do the other side while benching the gun.  You don't need to look at the damn target once you get the benched gun aligned and over that center of your aiming area.  If the gun is benched the the gun isn't moving very much or at all unless you don't know how to actually bench test a gun or you have the most massive tremors ever or screw it up some other way with bad triggering, grip, etc.  

By doing this way (stabilizing the gun in the selected aiming area) any remaining active brain cells can concentrate fully on sight alignment while completing the shot process without the other neural inputs from muscles try to hold the gun up and stabilizing the wobble.  And you AIN'T LOOKING AT THE TARGET DURING THE TRIGGERING PROCESS!

As a matter of fact, training on sight alignment while used a BENCHED gun is one of the best recommended ways of training the brain what a perfect sight alignment looks like without the distraction of the wobble.

(sigh..... again.  )

CR10X wrote:..........unless you don't know how to actually bench test a gun.........

Until just now, I have never heard of "bench testing", but apparently you mean using a gun rest.
(To me, bench testing implies shooting with my arms resting on the shooting table, which made no sense to me.....)

I have two gun rests, a heavy-duty steel one that in the case takes up half my trunk, and one of these toys:


.....it's not very good, and as soon as someone recommends a good one, I will buy it and donate this thing to the club.
Nobody has yet recommended something that looks worth buying, but that's another discussion.

I'm sure it is good enough to do your suggested test.   Going to the range after I make breakfast.  


(You are an excellent teacher, from my point of view.  Thank you.)

Why do you over complicate everything?  

No I do not mean that you have to use a gun rest.  I don't know how under equipped you might be but the only things you need to bench a gun is a few sandbags, a modicum of ability, decent vision, and a grounding in the fundamentals of sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control. 

CR

CR10X wrote:.........I don't know how under equipped you might be but the only things you need to bench a gun is a few sandbags, a modicum of ability, decent vision, and a grounding in the fundamentals of sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control. ........

In Michigan, I had access to sandbags.  In Miami Beach, not.  Buying a rest is simple.  I could probably buy some bags from Amazon, and fill them with sand from the beach, and find a way to seal them so I don't make a mess in my car or condo......    :-)


Went to the range, put up a 3" shoot-n-see at 15 yards to make sure the gun was sighted for center hold (and got rewarded with two nice holes in the center, next to each other.  Then I shot four B-8 targets, each time doing better.  I'll copy the last one below.  It's two handed at 25 yards, and while I think you could do better than this blindfolded, for me, without a dot, it is better than what I expected.



Between concentrating on sight alignment, and trigger control, I had no problems ignoring the target.

After all this, I tried a B-6 target at 50 yards.  With a dot sight, I can do this nicely.  Today, there were no holes on the B-8 Repair Center.  With my wad gun, months ago, I did better.  In fact, I'm sitting here wondering why I'm messing around with open sights at all.  

Again, thank you.  I'll eventually get there (wherever "there" happens to be...).

CR10X wrote:A better "test" is to bench the gun with as perfect sight alignment as you can achieve and while focusing on the sharp outline of the front sight, move the center of the aiming area to the 3:00 position on the black bullseye.  That means the right side of the front sight is on the right edge of the black.  Then do the same thing with the aiming area at the 9:00 position on the black bullseye, left side of the front sight on the left side of the black.  

Correctly performed at 25 yards both shots will produce a 10 or better.  This means perfect alignment with the wobble in the black will get you a 10.  Maybe belief will eventually creep in ..... (sigh, again.....)   

You always have great suggestions, training steps, shot process (steps) mechanics, etc. Thank you! 

I'm going to do this test at 50 yards, with a new 9mm 1911 pistol. I'm hoping that I can also use the test data (statistically?) to comment on pistol/load 50 yard accuracy. Perhaps that's not possible? I guess it will depend on the results.

I'm not seeing a great deal about accuracy testing with irons, but without a RR. I like this idea, as my RR can be frustrating to deal with, and I consider my setup to be quite good (welded steel table buried in concrete). It will be fun testing. Will report back...

Ransom Rests need almost as much consistency in their operation as we do.  A couple clubs I have belonged to had them and I normally had better results using a good rifle rear bag (bunny ears) setup than the RR gave.
Same goes for rifle ammo testing.  I get better results slung in off a sandbag than from a rest or bipod.

This is a slightly edited version of responses up above, that I feel should be included in the Bullseye Encyclopedia - https://www.bullseyepistol.com - to be added to the section on "Perfecting Technique".

I have no idea how something like this gets done, but I am sure this write-up deserves its own topic, rather than being buried away in a forum discussion.
I've already saved it on my computer, and printed it out to review every so often.
I've also mailed it to a few friends.


OPEN SIGHTS:
by CR10X
 
Why is sight alignment more important than sight picture?  (OR Why should I ignore the target.)  They are different ways of communicating the same concept.  Here are four reasons why we need to see the sights better than the target. 

(1) EVERYTHING that determines the impact point of a bullet happens AT THE GUN.  The sights are on the gun, the target area is not.  How will one know what's happening at the gun if they are looking at the target (with open sights). 

[Aside:  Dot sights are different due to the geometry of reflecting a dot onto a curved half-mirror lens to indicate alignment of the gun AND the expected point of impact.  But the further away from the center of the lens (tube), the more there are issues with the alignment of the gun (which is also intertwined in the parallax issue).  And also why most shooters reach a limit well below their potential using only dots when developing their shooting technique. They are seeing both the wobble and the misalignment and it’s hard to tell where each is coming from and contributing to the movement of the dot. They have trouble figuring out how to do Number 2 and deal with Number 3 since the dot is showing both the movement from misalignment and wobble as both are happening at the same time in their visual input. But that's another discussion.] 
 
(2) ALIGNMENT of the sights (front and rear sights perfectly aligned) beats placement on the target area.  Perfect alignment of the sights equals no angular displacement of the center of the bore relative to the target.  Angular displacement equals BIG shot group.  Do the math, its simple trigonometry.  Check our how much 0.001 misalignment of the sights moves the impact of the bullet at 50 yards.

(3) WOBBLE (linear displacement) of the gun around the target area with perfect sight alignment only creates vertical or horizontal displacement equal to the amount movement.  This means the distance from the center of the aiming area is only equal to the difference in the position of the gun relative to the target area.  Wobble displacement equals SMALL group. (Unless you wobble more than 3.36 inches in any direction with perfect sight alignment, you will hit the 10 ring at 50 yards.

(4) AIMING AREA location is unimportant except that it needs to enable you keep in mind Number 1 in order to do Number 2 as perfectly as possible with the most consistent and least amount of Number 3.   It does not matter where your aiming area center is on the target (sub-6, 6:00, center, NRA logo, corner of the target frame, etc., etc.).  There are screws on the gun (adjustable sights) that will move the point of impact where you want it.  Just have a consistent aiming area.  

If you are looking at something out at the target area, then you can't determine if you have perfect sight alignment with open sights.  And that is why BLACK front sights are the best.  They will produce the "crisp" visual image so one can see the perfect outline of the front sight in the rear notch.  Colors produce a more "fuzzy" edge for most people.  And we are not just focusing on or seeing the front sight.  We are seeing the crisp sharp top and side of the front sight relative to the rear sight notch so we can tell exactly where it is in the notch and keep it in the center. Nothing fuzzy about the front sight, something a little fuzzy about the rear sight notch, doesn't matter how fuzzy the target as long as you can tell which one is yours and can define your wobble area. 

My friend who has a sewing machine took an old pair of jeans, cut about 12 inches from one leg,filled it with cat litter, sand bag. Works great. No need to overthink.

[quote="CR10X"]I cannot believe I'm even taking the time to respond to this (again).  Yes, it was answered for you before. 

One more time.  

CR (sigh....)[/quote]

......Where is natural selection when you need it.......Come on.  You’re all thinking it.....

I went to the range today with my Salyer/Springfield 45, with red dot, shooting at a standard B-8 target that my range uses, and got a score of 100 and 6X, which at my range is plenty good.  Of course I'm using two hands (like just about everyone at my range does) and I'm usually shooting at the same B-8 target my range uses for scoring, and the only competition I do is at my range.

But I want to shoot (as) well with open sights, and I still "suck" at it.  Maybe you're suggesting I stop shooting, or maybe you're suggesting I stop using open sights.  It's too much enjoyment, and I'm too stubborn to quit.

If you mean what I think you mean, by "natural selection" I ought to take up a different hobby.  I've got lots of them, especially photography.  But this is still my favorite.

If by "natural selection" you mean I should go off and do something else, feel free to say it out loud.  I won't mind.  I'd rather hear it straight out.

However good (or bad) I am now, I owe most of it to what I've learned in this forum.  And if CR10X is frustrated by me asking for something he answered years ago, I don't know what to say - I wish I didn't forget things like that, but I did, and do, and I'm sure I will do so again in the future.  

Even if the target below sucks, with the wrong target and too many hands, I always dreamed of doing something like that, but never could, especially with a 45.  So I've got a smile from ear to ear, and if I sill suck at shooting my Les Baer with one hand, so be it.  So, if you want to say something negative, come right out and say it.  I'm not going to get discouraged, I'll probably try even harder to "catch up" to what you guys seem to do so easily.   :-)

Congratulations on your personal best Mike!
I appreciate you Mike for keeping the learned here talking so I can keep learning myself

Nice target Mike!

Thanks!

One of my favorite sayings is:

    "Everything is Easy once you Know How to do it."


Learning is often more difficult than doing.....     

Mike,

This is a GREAT target. The only advice is to draw a red circle around the awesome clump of 5 shots in the X-ring and stare at them all day!
There is no need to emphasize the worst shot on a great target. Even if you think that you did it for a reason, there is still no need for it at all.


Best Regards,
Oleg.

mikemyers wrote:Thanks!

One of my favorite sayings is:

    "Everything is Easy once you Know How to do it."


Learning is often more difficult than doing.....     

  That's what it means in my signature, below.
Stan

(1)  If one thinks something is "easy" then they have created their biggest obstacle to getting better.  Easy never brings out the best performance.  Relaxed confidence and total awareness produces the best performance.  And that comes from training HARD. 

(2) Just because there has been a "thought" doesn't mean one has actually been "thinking".  Do not confuse the two. 

(3) It's not an actual "idea" until "thinking" takes place. It's a "thought" until it has been analyzed by "thinking" to determine if it qualifies as an "idea".  Most people today cannot recognize the difference between any of these concepts. 

(4) It's not what you don't know that creates the biggest impediments.  The biggest impediments are the things you thought you knew that turn out to be incorrect.  Most people do not test their basic assumptions.  Just because it was "thought" to be reasonable does not mean it is correct.    

(5) If one wishes to get better at Precision Pistol; there are 861 Topics and 12,518 posts in the Fundamentals Discussion section.  Read them, make notes in a journal, develop a shot plan / process and then see if there are any additional questions.

The list goes on and on.  I have over +25 years of journals and notes.  And with my CRS syndrome, I now spend more time rereading than writing.  

CR

I like what you are saying Cecil. I cannot make a choice on what I read in this forum or elsewhere, until I try that idea someone has. I have to keep a journal or write the idea and results down so I know I'm just not spinning around in circles. That's basically how I've refined my shot process so far. I'll know when something works for me when I've tried it, will it be the only correct way, yes until I try something better.
 Bullseye is for me the toughest pistol discipline I've encountered so far, and I have to work hard at it also.
Stan

CR10X wrote:........And with my CRS syndrome, I now spend more time rereading than writing.....

I never heard of CRS until you wrote this, and after looking it up, it sounds very ....scary?  Well, I got scared just reading the definitions on the 'net.  I hope the doctors are doing the appropriate things to deal with it.

I wouldn't argue against any of the things that you wrote, and I think that all those points are valid.  

However, I don't really fit into what you wrote.  My goal is not to shoot better than "the experts", but just to "shoot better than I can already".  To me, following most of your ideas allows me to improve.  Trying to stay up to date in this forum alone is helping me with things I never really thought about before.


Oleg G - you wrote "The only advice is to draw a red circle around the awesome clump of 5 shots in the X-ring and stare at them all day! 
There is no need to emphasize the worst shot on a great target. "     .........I know what you mean, and understand, but the shot I isolated wasn't "worse", it was from before I adjusted the sights one click to the left.

I guess I'm too stubborn to do what's "logical".  If I wanted to get a better target, I'd use my Salyer/Springfield, rather than my Les Baer with open sights.  I believe in myself to the degree that I expect I will eventually be able to shoot the Baer with open sights just as well as the Springfield with a dot.

I went back to the range with my Baer, set the target up at 15 yards, and loaded one round at a time, doing everything the best I know how.
I had sprayed the front sight with "sight black" which I think helped.
Ten "good" rounds are shown.  Not shown are two rounds when my hand "jerked" unexpectedly.
Probably from over-concentrating.

It's an ordinary B-8 target, and it again is using two hands, and had it been at 25, not 15, the score would be different, but I didn't think I would ever get to do this at 15 or 25 with open sights.  What all of you have written, especially Cecil, has helped me tremendously.  At some point, my body is going to start complaining, but that hasn't happened yet.

In my mind, the single biggest thing I need to start doing, is holding drills with one hand.  With enough practice (using my lead-filled magazine), I'll either improve, or injure myself.

mikemyers wrote:

CR10X wrote:........And with my CRS syndrome, I now spend more time rereading than writing.....

I never heard of CRS until you wrote this, and after looking it up, it sounds very ....scary?  Well, I got scared just reading the definitions on the 'net.  I hope the doctors are doing the appropriate things to deal with it.

Most of us associate "CRS SYndrome" with "Can't Remember S--t"

Mike:  NukeMMC is correct.  Man, you really need to get a grip and get off the internet sometimes. 

However, I don't really fit into what you wrote.  My goal is not to shoot better than "the experts", but just to "shoot better than I can already".

Again, I've said this before.  So this time, this is NOT for you.  It's for others that might read these posts (bless their hearts).

Everything, and I mean everything that applies to getting better in competition or performance goes double for just "shoot better than I can already".  Because they require exactly the same thing from the shooter.  Technique, physical training mental training, dealing with "nerves", dryfiring, shot process, visualization.  Nobody really gets better by having a goal to shoot better than someone else.  That is a self limiting mindset and sets one up for failure.  Everyone gets better performance by training to shoot better than they already can.  Physically and mentally. That's the point.  

Understanding there is no difference in the training or the mindset to achieve "doing better than you did before" or performance improvement or training for competitive shooting is a key mental mindset.  Shooting competitively is not about shooting against other shooters.  It is about shooting your best for that day, no matter what the score or placement turns out to be in the end.  And isn't that exactly what you want from "shoot better than I can already"?  The only difference between shooting at the range by yourself and being in a competition is that there are more people shooting at the same time for the latter.

And lastly:  

I've reached the age where my ADD, OCD and CRS are fighting it out to see which one wins.  Most of the time I can't remember what distracted me from what I thought I had to do.

CR

mikemyers wrote:....loaded one round at a time....

Hello mikemyers,

I've seen you write this previously.  What is the logic behind doing that?  How do you load the round, via the magazine or drop it in the chamber?

Jim

spursnguns wrote:

mikemyers wrote:....loaded one round at a time....

Hello mikemyers,

I've seen you write this previously.  What is the logic behind doing that?  How do you load the round, via the magazine or drop it in the chamber?

Jim

Very simple.

I would normally load 5 45 rounds, and shoot them at a slow-fire pace, maybe resting my hands between shots, but not removing them from the gun.  By the time I was getting to perhaps the third round, I suspected my grip on the gun had changed.  So, as a test, I would load a magazine with one round, carefully take the shot, and the follow-through, then lower the gun and load another single round in the magazine.  This would be repeated 10 times.  I noticed when I started doing this, I would get a better result than from shooting 5 rounds, reloading, and shooting 5 more.

Not sure if it was reasonable, but my best guess was that something in my grip was shifting each time the gun fired.  There may well be other explanations that I haven't thought of.

Because of the above, while I was already gripping the gun "hard", I decided to grip it even harder.  That helped.  

I have found other things to do that helped.  I read that people shooting the Les Baer Premiere II use the safety as a thumb rest.  That seemed to help, but it removed some of the pressure from my palm on the grip safety, so I put a piece of skateboard tape on the grip safety to compensate.  I think I ought to find something thicker than the skateboard tape, so my hand fits the gun better.  Also, I prefer "sharkskin grips" because they help the gun stay "locked in" to my hands.


A friend at the range suggested I buy one of those devices that tracks "movement" of the gun as I shoot, both dry-fire and live-fire.  That might tell me if I'm doing things "differently" between the first round and the fifth.  I'm not sure I want to spend so much money though.  I think I should be able to find all my answers by just looking at my targets.
(
Since all of you are using one hand for Bullseye Shooting, which is by definition the proper way to do it, I started dry-firing today with only one hand.  (95% of the shooters at my range use two hands, and for the matches they shoot at 15 and 25 yards on B-8 targets.)  If I get to the range tomorrow, it will be with the Baer, one handed.



Back to your question, what I just wrote is my explanation, but as usually happens here, I'll probably find out I'm going about this incorrectly.  To me, the real solution, if the gun is shifting in my hand as I shoot, is to correct my grip so that doesn't happen.   Yes, I have asked others at the club, but unlike you guys, they aren't shooting well enough that I want to ask them - and the one person who was REALLY good, Joe Mains, stopped coming to the range.  Anyway, I think I have fixed my grip to where this is no longer an issue.......

CR10X wrote:Mike:  NukeMMC is correct.  Man, you really need to get a grip and get off the internet sometimes. 

I am happy to read that.  I put your words into an internet search, and found lots of horrible things it refers to.

I have "it" too, which is why I asked the same question again that you had already answered several years ago.
Fortunately I do a double-check before leaving for the range, to make certain I'm bringing the right "stuff", and the correct ammo for whatever gun I'm bringing.
My memory was never good, and now it's even less so.

Get off the internet?  I suppose I could always turn on the tv and watch lots of meaningless trivia.  I'd rather watch Hickok45.

If I'm boring or bothering anyone here, please just 'forget' this thread.  I keep coming home from the range with more questions than answers.

One of the two guns I wanted to test today is my S&W Model 17-5 that I finally got a rear sight which works with the gun.  I wanted the gun "stock", so I replaced my custom stocks with the ones that came with the gun.  I shot it yesterday, and came home frustrated.  I spent two hours last night dry-firing it with one hand, which was going to lead to another test today.

Got the gun out, and shot two targets using both hands, with what I would call miserable results.  So, I switched to one hand, just like I dry-fired, and got nothing like what I expected - it was better with one hand, but I had hoped for a much better result.  Here's the target:



Just for the heck of it, I did a search for accuracy using this gun, and found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIbSEw6EERw 

With this fellow using a rest, and both hands, I expected much better.

If anyone is still reading this, my only question is how tight a group is a stock Model 17 revolver capable of in good hands?

I'll continue to dry-fire at night, and less frequently test at the range, and see how well I might be capable of shooting it.


When all this was done, I put up an official 25 yard slow fire target and started to shoot my Baer one-handed.  I got four reasonable shots, but then my hand started to shake so much there was no point in continuing.  I took a 15 minute break, and continued - got a few more holes in the black, and then the holes were way off to the right as my hand "vibrated".

Lots more dry-fire, and I'll try this again tomorrow or Monday.  With enough strength, the shakes should go away.  I hope. 

My interpretation from this is when the gun was held still, the shots were reasonable.  As my hands started to shake, more and more, the vertical wobble is what I would expect, but horizontally, all the holes moved off to my right.  I think this means that I wasn't standing properly lined up with the target, and next time I will need to orient my body more to my right.  My mind was too pre-occupied with other things - as in the sight picture, and having a surprise break.  

Or, in other words, if I was aligned properly with the target, my group should have grown, but I think it should still be centered around the bullseye.  

I guess for one hand bullseye shooting on a real bullseye target, I'm still in kindergarten.  
I'm way too stubborn to quit.  




I had no idea what to expect.  I'm pleasantly surprised I was able to do this at all.  Last time I tried this gun one-handed, I never got off even one round because of "the shakes".  So, when I finished, I had a smile on my face despite such an ugly target.....