Trigger pull methods...

I'm starting to think that the way to pull a 1911 trigger is different from methods with an Air Pistol, Free Pistol or even regular 22s. Thinking the latter let you do things the former doesn't like.

Yeah the weight is different and you still have to be smooth continuous, uninterrupted straight back etc but I think there's more here.

Things that stuck in my head were comments by good 45 shooters ( Masters, not HM) that couldn't shoot a 22 to the same level. In my case for my early years, l could get the occasional 880 indoors (22) and 565-570 in air but only 800ish with 45. 45 was frequently good, l made Master but my performance was inconsistent.

Carried a 290 indoor average in 22 for several years but never anything close in CF. Worked a lot with 45 this year brought my averages up but went down in 22. My pull in Air was increasing but at a reduced rate, think horizontal asymptote. I got surprise breaks but that last bit of travel could get a twitch

Shooting the 45 the other day I stabilized during the initial pull (about half) then accelerated the remainder and achieved silver  dollar size groups at 25 yards. No surprise breaks here, it was trust in god and hold on. Scary to be honest with you.

New shooters are usually fast on trigger but it's rough and generally uncontrollable. I have heard a number of HM shooters say they do not get surprise breaks, they take them. This is a whole new level of performance.

Thoughts?

And yes, grip is key to resisting the 3 motions.

I have not believed in surprise shots in forever. Difference in good trigger and great trigger is you know it’s about to break. A trigger that feels good in the garage doesn’t always feel good at the range. There is anxiety at the range that inhibits trigger process. It will/does feel different.
45 requires confident trigger squeeze. Cannot hem haw around.
A personalized trigger job is necessary to shoot consistently good scores. You might shoot a good score once with a so so trigger, but a good trigger helps you do it frequently.
I’ve watched good international shooters shoot decent 22 aggregates but fall on their asses with a 45. Not always the case but was common. 
45 really isn’t that hard to shoot well. Just can’t go through the motions to get there. It’s important to be very close friends with the trigger, it helps a bunch.
Jon

Knowing when the shot is going to break is not the same thing as making it break.

CR10X wrote:Knowing when the shot is going to break is not the same thing as making it break.

Yeah, I am thinking that's where the real magic happens

Was once told that dry firing, even while watching TV (!) tens, or hundreds of thousands of times, teaches the inner brain precisely where hammer falls. This bit of knowledge is needed by the inner brain to consistently hit X's.
Ya can't be thinking to hit 10's and X's repeatedly. Given that bit of info, the inner brain knows when.

Hi John, l think it just gets you used to a smooth pull without any bad outcome...

Hope you're doing well

Smooth pull is good, but the subconscious needs to know when bang is going to occur. It gets that from repeated clicks. That, and visual input, lets the inner brain know when is the optimum time for the bang.

Doing great Bruce! Scores don't show it, but still loving it! Hope you're well also!

Good trigger job is a must. Just because you know when it’s going to break doesn’t mean it’s breaking at the right time. Most trigger jobs I come across, they break too late. In other words beyond your hold. You will start wobbling or dropping below the bull and can still break a good shot.
Shot has to be able to break fast and I’m not talking aggressive trigger squeeze, the mechanism itself. Shooters with strong hold can get away with longer breaking trigger job. Just like long roll usually isn’t anybody's friend.
Great trigger job makes the other fundamentals go better!
Jon

CR10X wrote:Knowing when the shot is going to break is not the same thing as making it break.

Definitely!!

jwax wrote:Was once told that dry firing, even while watching TV (!) tens, or hundreds of thousands of times, teaches the inner brain precisely where hammer falls. This bit of knowledge is needed by the inner brain to consistently hit X's.
Ya can't be thinking to hit 10's and X's repeatedly. Given that bit of info, the inner brain knows when.

For what it's worth, I've found that turning on my TV so I don't get bored, and dry-firing for 40 minutes or so per session, was extremely helpful in turning what I've  been reading here into "reality".  I think my "grip" is good, and I position the gun into my hand the same way every time.  I've only been practicing slow-fire, aligning the sights (or the dot), and maintaining that while making my trigger finger slowly and surely increase pressure on the trigger.  Eventually the gun fires.  I do better now than ever before, but I very much do NOT know when the gun is going to fire.  If I do what I just described, in dry-firing the gun remains steady, and in live-firing the hole appears in a good position on the target.  If I ever "force the shot", and take it, without waiting for it, my accuracy is degraded.  I'm not sure what this means, or how long I will keep at it, but it's working.  

I mostly stopped posting here, and just read here.  I'm only posting now because of what 'jwax' wrote.  Dry-practice with the TV on sounds like a bad idea, but I figure the goal is to do it so much, so often, exactly the same way during dry-fire, that I will naturally do the same thing at the range.  At the range, I've even gone as far as to load just one round in my magazine, so make everything just like when I dry-fire.  Long ago, 'cranky thunder' suggested I get all this to happen automatically, with my sub-conscious taking the shot. That's the current goal.  I also figure if I can do it right with 45, I'll do the same with '22.  

If anyone wants to copy, what I do is put on a movie I've already seen so many times in the past that I don't need to watch, or listen, or think about it.  I just dry-fire according the schedule I set up in my iPhone "Interval Timer" app, which buzzes when I should pick up my gun and take a shot, and buzzes again when I should put the gun down.  The magazine was filled with lead by Dave Salyer, so it simulates the heaviest my magazine will ever be when shooting.  My current program is set for half an hour of alternating between shooting and resting.  My plan is to learn both two-hand accuracy (which is what most people at my range shoot) and one-hand accuracy.  The club bullseye matches typically have up to 30 or so two-hand shooters (15 and 25 yards), and 3 to 5 one-hand shooters (25 and 50 yards).  Stupidly, when I stopped going to the range because of the virus, I stopped dry-firing as well, and now need to build up my hand strength all over again.  

All the time in the past was spent on 22, which everyone suggested I concentrate on.  I hadn't shot my 45 in two years, until a few weeks ago.  I don't do any of this to be competitive - the real reason is that it's fun, and the only real competitor I have to shoot against is myself, "last time".  My Nelson conversion is off with Dave Salyer, installing a trigger that fits my hand, to replace the flat Caspian trigger I stupidly installed.  He also lightened the trigger pull to 2.5 pounds.  I'm half way tempted to put my other bullseye guns, S&W and High Standard, in the forum to sell them.  I shoot the Nelson just as well, or better, than I shoot my other 22 bullseye guns.

Sorry this got so long.  Dry-Firing with the TV playing caught my eye, and using a lead-filled magazine makes it wonderful exercise, in my opinion at least.

It's at 15 yards, and two handed, but I got to put 5 rounds in the X-ring twice in a row, so I guess I'm learning......:

mikemyers wrote:. . .
I've only been practicing slow-fire, aligning the sights (or the dot), and maintaining that while making my trigger finger slowly and surely increase pressure on the trigger.
. . .

Why does everyone think they need to be "slowly" moving the trigger?

This covers up all the feedback and doesn't transfer to sustained fire.

Operate the trigger in a determined fashion.  Instead of slowing everything down so you don't see a disturbance, learn how to operate the trigger faster without disturbing the sighting system alignment.

Ed Hall wrote:

mikemyers wrote:. . .
I've only been practicing slow-fire, aligning the sights (or the dot), and maintaining that while making my trigger finger slowly and surely increase pressure on the trigger.
. . .

Why does everyone think they need to be "slowly" moving the trigger?

This covers up all the feedback and doesn't transfer to sustained fire.

Operate the trigger in a determined fashion.  Instead of slowing everything down so you don't see a disturbance, learn how to operate the trigger faster without disturbing the sighting system alignment.

The advice I got from "cranky thunder" was far more helpful to me, "watch the dot, wait for the bang".  
Hopefully, while doing this slowly until I am good at it, I can gradually speed up, maintaining the same results.

To be more precise, I'm not "slowly moving the trigger".  As I wrote:  "making my trigger finger slowly and surely increase pressure on the trigger."  
That's different from what you thought I meant.

Use what shows progress for your personal process.

Ed Hall asked why I thought it useful to s-l-o-w-l-y work the trigger.  I don't know anyone else's answer, but I discovered something over the past week.  It seems to me that this is the only way to learn what my trigger is really doing.

For a week or so now, I've been dry-firing with my Springfield SA-35 (Browning Hi Power Clone).  Apply more and more pressure until the gun goes CLICK.  I thought that the trigger pressure just gradually built up, until it reached a certain value, which was enough for the gun to "fire".  

I loaded a 9mm SnapCap so I could practice as long as I wanted, without causing a problem.  By the third day or so, I discovered I was wrong.  I kept adding more pressure, but at a certain amount of pressure, the trigger moved a tiny amount.  More pressure, and more movement.  A slight amount more pressure, and the gun went CLICK with the sights remaining exactly as they were.  I did this for several sessions, until I could deliberately feel that movement, knowing that the tiniest amount of additional pressure would fire the gun.

I'm not saying this is good, or bad, or that others should or should not do it.

What I can say, is that I never would have discovered all this had I not been working the trigger so s-l-o-w-l-y.  

If I'm right, then I guess I need to learn how to make this part of my shooting, including when I need to shoot more quickly.  That's a goal right now, and I don't know whether or not it's possible for me to achieve it.  



I've been reading "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern.  He has a chapter on Trigger Control.  Everything I've been trying to describe fits right into his advice.  Some of the things he writes go against what people are now being taught.  I think it's a wonderful book, and I've been enjoying reading it - while at the same time being amazed at what he was capable of doing.  

One thing he writes is that there are a lot of things necessary to get a good shot, and if the shooter notices any one of those conditions are not ideal, the shooter should stop, and wait until all of them are good, before continuing to add more pressure on the trigger.  He specifically says NOT to abort the shot, and start all over again.

If anyone is interested, his book is available on Amazon.  An original hard-copy book is costly, but it's available in soft-cover reprints, for a much lower price.  I'm tempted to buy another better copy, where the photos are reproduced better.