Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Front Sight Focus

+4
Al
SteveT
xmastershooter
SingleActionAndrew
8 posters

Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Front Sight Focus

Post by xmastershooter Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:59 pm

I've been contributing as a vision consultant for about 20 years now, starting with the original Bullseye-L.  My reward has been receiving thanks from list members who put my suggestions into practice.  My first couple of "thanks" were from a shooter in Washington and North Carolina, both who are members of this forum.  Neither shooter used a +0.75 diopter add over their RX.  I have never solicited for business and declined endorsing products so there were never any financial gains.

My original article on shooting and vision may be seen in Ed Hall's postings on shooting.  The shooting add best for me at the time of my 2008 article was +0.75 D add.  I recommended trying +0.50, +0.75 and +1.00D as a start.  As the years went by, +0.75D add no longer worked for me.  Seeing the front sight blurred along with the bulllseye blurred did not work for me at all.  I do pride myself as a good listener especially when top shooters such as Brian Zins and Bill Blankenship speak... "Front Sight Focus!"

The human eye is not as rigid as we think.  From experience, I no longer took into consideration the shooter's age, length of arm and pupil size during my bullseye exams.  Charts and diagrams are not truly reflective on how we see all the time.  For example, a teenager may have 15 diopters of accommodation and may struggle to maintain front sight focus.  A 65 year old senior may still be able to accommodate 0.75 diopters.  When I learned that prominent shooters who are national record holders and Camp Perry champions used the outer limits of suggested power add ranges, this was an eye opener for me.  The shooter almost 60 years old used a +0.25 add while the shooter in his 30's used a +1.50 add.

I think for most, start with the best lens for front sight focus.  If there is a problem with too much target blur, then back down in 0.25D steps.  Two important factors should be considered, focus and fixation, which are two different things.  Focus is the finest clarity possible with the proper lens.  Fixation is directing your fovea onto the front sight.  The fovea is the center of the macula in the retina where our images are directed, our line of sight.  As long as the fixation is firm onto the front sight, a good shot can still be achieved.  Fixation is just as important as focus.

Norman Wong, O.D.

xmastershooter

Posts : 260
Join date : 2011-06-10

Founder, Jack H, jwax, CR10X, Krogen, sharkdoctor, x90rider and like this post

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by SingleActionAndrew Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:17 pm

Dr Wong, thank you for sharing more insights. Does the diopter also affect fixation?
SingleActionAndrew
SingleActionAndrew
Admin

Posts : 674
Join date : 2019-11-19
Location : IL, USA

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by xmastershooter Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:30 pm

Very good question.  The power of the shooting lens add does not affect fixation.  In fact, the recent topic of Glasses for Bullseye in the Equipment section showed a video "Front Sight Focus" by the Navy Seal which erroneously discussed "focus" but in realty was discussing "fixation."  In the exercises described, one can still elicit the peripheral fading even if the central point was not in focus.  This was a demonstration known as the Troxler Effect.

xmastershooter

Posts : 260
Join date : 2011-06-10

SingleActionAndrew and RADJAG like this post

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by SteveT Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:45 am

Thank you Norman. You have a lot more experience than me.
SteveT
SteveT

Posts : 1107
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

RADJAG likes this post

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty eye doctoring

Post by Al Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:25 am

Really good to see you posting again Norman.  Your posts from the old list were always full of valuable information, you didn't lower the bar this time either.
Al

Al

Posts : 650
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 69
Location : Bismarck, ND

RADJAG likes this post

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by javaduke Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:01 am

Norman, good to hear from you again! 
I realized recently that my problem is not focusing on the front sight, it's keeping the focus on the front sight (or any particular point) for a long time. I definitely need to see a doctor about this issue, but in the meantime I try to break the shot as early as possible, before my focus starts wandering off. It is especially noticeable for some reason when I shoot 10m air pistol, but I can see this being an issue at 25 yards as well, not so much at 50 though. 
I use +0.50D over my prescription lens. Guess I'll try +0.75 too.

javaduke

Posts : 769
Join date : 2012-07-04

https://eb-custom.us

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by xmastershooter Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:36 am

Hi Javaduke, the +0.75 upgrade will allow a more stable sight picture for you, at least a few years.  You're still a young guy.  There will come a time when the +0.75 will not work as well.  You will then have a choice of seeing the the front sights blurred along with the bullseye or upgrade to a +1.00 add.  The front sights will then become clear once again and the bullseye will become more blurred.  You will still be able to shoot well if you won't let that bother you.  Good sight alignment will still be key to your good shots.

xmastershooter

Posts : 260
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by Arthur Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:23 pm

starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongarts.html

Sir 

Just referenced some of your work in Equipment. Thanks for the contribution. 

Best, 
Arthur

Arthur

Posts : 156
Join date : 2018-09-15

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by Jack H Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:31 pm

My right eye distance lens is -.75.  If I double on a +1.00 reader, it works very good.

Although I am overdue on my eye exam schedule.....
Jack H
Jack H

Posts : 2699
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 75
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by xmastershooter Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:36 pm

Hi Jack, essentially, you are using a +1.00D add for your shooting eye.  Are you using center hold, 6 O'clock hold or sub 6?

xmastershooter

Posts : 260
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by xmastershooter Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:18 am

Hi Arthur, thank you for posting the link to my articles pertaining to bullseye.  Please click onto "Iron Sight Visual Perception Under The Open Sun."  This is the only consensus I know which describe in detail of how some of the top shooters see and what they use.

We cannot discuss iron sight focus along with the ideal shooting lens add without also including apertures and the type of hold into the conversation.  Shooting with iron sights is an art which has been disappearing after the introduction of the red dot scopes.  This article was a survey about the need to adjust the windage as the sun changes position throughout the day.  I also asked a number of questions pertaining to age, the distance from the eye to the front sight, the shooting add used if needed, use of aperture, and the use of center mass hold or 6 O'clock hold or sub-6 hold.  The shooting add is not as simplistic as one may think and one add does not appear to fit all.  This article is a long read but a rewarding one.  Here's a quick summary.

Results of the shooting add power: Some may use different powers depending on target distance
3   Don't know
3   None
1  +0.25
3  +0.50
1  +0.75
3  +1.00
1  +1.25

Type of Hold: Some used different holds depending on discipline or target distance
10  Center Mass
6    6 O'clock
5    Sub-6
2    Line of white

Use of Aperture:
9   No
5   Yes

It appears that there's no one power add the majority of the shooters used.  Center mass hold was used by the majority and several used an aperture.  These two factors would allow the use of higher shooting add powers.  John Bickar has said sight alignment is key and he doesn't care much about the bullseye blob when using center mass hold.  Cecil Rhodes, we all know as a valuable contributor to this forum, did not use a shooting add at the time of this survey but from his recent postings, he is using add(s) now.

I hope this shed some light to discussions about the shooting adds while shooting iron sights, types of holds and use of apertures by elite shooters.  On a humorous departing note, don't get pissed off after shooting a bad shot or a string during sustained fire.  Your pupils dilate when upset and would adversely affect your sight picture.


Norman Wong, O.D.

xmastershooter

Posts : 260
Join date : 2011-06-10

Arthur likes this post

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by Jack H Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:06 pm

xmastershooter wrote:Hi Jack, essentially, you are using a +1.00D add for your shooting eye.  Are you using center hold, 6 O'clock hold or sub 6?

I never set myself into a by-the-book plan.  Ranges, lighting, Me, can change when shooting irons. 

But usually I shoot sub 6 where the white above the sight equals the cracks on the side.  THis sort of frames the front sight.  It does depend some on lighting conditions.  I believe this frame idea parallels your concentric circles with the dot. 

50 years ago with naked eye, I could see the color and texture on the front sight.  When light on the sights and target were ideal, the x ring was in peril.  I wish I could have continued my drive towards Freepistol PTOs.
Jack H
Jack H

Posts : 2699
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 75
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by lyoke Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:17 pm

I am curious if there is similar a lighting effect in air pistol with bright electronic targets similar to bright sun on targets in bullseye? Although I only have a lens for an astigmatism, it seems like front sight and focus issues are magnified on the electronics compared to paper outdoors.

lyoke

Posts : 130
Join date : 2015-07-12
Location : Southwest Florida

Back to top Go down

Front Sight Focus Empty Re: Front Sight Focus

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum