Cannot see Iron Sights on Indoor Range

Dear Friends,

I am very happy to have a place to shoot again.  It is a large commercial indoor range near my home.  Everything is fine at the range except I cannot see Iron sights well.  I have had cataract surgery and I have very good eyesight at the distance to my front and rear sights.  When I am in my house they are very clear and distinct.  I have applied some of the new sight black paint to both front and rear that is quite nice stuff.  when I get to the range they look like mush.  Each lane has a dimmer for the lights and I've tried that to little effect.  this happens whether it's a revolver, free pistol, or 1911.  Even my truly weird Morini CM-80 with a rear sight quite far away does not seem to help.  I do not need any correction at all to read rather fine print at arms length after a lifetime of being really nearsighted .  I feel rather clueless about this.  I am using My regular clear glasses as well as Decot HyWyd glasses with Light Medium Target Orange and light gold lenses.  Does not seem to matter.

Thanks to All,

Dwight

Most indoor ranges don't have bright light, even with "young" eyes crisp sight definition indoors is a challenge.

I use a Gehmann clip-on iris at indoor ranges. In poor light, it helps sharpen the image and ease eyestrain.

Same here.  At my local (indoor) range even with the lights on max it is hard to make out irons.  Dots work, though 

I’m either going to find my Knoblocks or order an iris!

Thanks,

DLB

I’m either going to find my Knoblocks or order an iris!

Thanks,

DLB

The problem with many indoor ranges is there isn’t enough light, particularly forward of the firing line.  A lot of indoor ranges have light behind you but pointed down and light pointed at the target.  It works for rifle shooting, kinda sorta, because the sights used in rifle shooting can be used without absolute definition at short ranges.  Without light being reflected from the front sight, you can’t really focus on it.   Pistol shooting requires the front sight to be in focus.   Hence, why indoor ranges suck for pistol shooting.  If I go to an indoor range I get far better results from dot sights.

This is one reason I do not shoot indoors anymore but I can understand if it is what you have.  I only shoot iron sights and had the best luck using a Merit adjustable iris. It sort of focuses the light down to your your eye so it can pick up the sights better.  I have never tried, but you could experiment with different colored lenses to see if something will brighten up the sights for you.  Yellow comes to mind but possibly some other color might work.  As others said, dot sights work much better for the low light conditions. 

Good Luck.
John

I have the same problem here in Amarillo. When the targets are turned, I can see the front sight fine. When they turn and I can see the target, the front sight gets blurry.  It wasn't as bad, when I was younger.  Guess it's an age thing.  We've tried using different type bulbs, but it has not helped.  So, most of the time, I use the dot indoors.

K38. You mention Knoblochs - yes, if you already have them, why aren't you using them???. 

Blind the non-shooting eye and set the iris/diopter to give you the optimum image clarity. You will need to experiment and also make slight adjustments according to actual light conditions. I like to have extensive shades on both sides of my glasses/cap in order to eliminate glare and distractions as much as possible - that is all down to personal preference.

If you are not able to get the front sight blade in perfect focus, then you might well need a corrective lens. With red dots outdoors I need none, but with iron sights, particularly indoors, I need +0.50 or +0.75 correction. There are several threads here on this subject. Lens are available from Champions Choice and Shooting Sight.

Thanks guys!  I have not been around on the forum in a long time!  I moved to Buda a couple of years ago and I can't seem to find my Knoblochs which have a nice iris.  I ordered a new clip on Gehman Iris which will undoubtably caus the knoblochs to appear!  Thanks to all for the kind advice.  I don't think it would show it but I go back to when this was a mail list and not a forum.  Always the best place ever to learn about pistol shooting.  I still have my bullseye guns with red dots on them and maybe I can get to the point where I can shoot a bit again.  I don't know about anything in Central Texas.  Seems like there should be something going on though.

K38,
Come shoot at Austin Rifle Club. We have a monthly 2700 third Sunday of the month.

I shoot at an indoor range once a week. I have cataracts that the eye doctor says aren't quite bad enough to have removed. I have prescription shooting glasses, but the prescription is out of date. I get my best sight picture when I turn off the light over the firing point and get a silhouette image of the sights.

sam762 wrote:K38,
Come shoot at Austin Rifle Club. We have a monthly 2700 third Sunday of the month.

I might try that!  I read up on the club seems joining is complicated, but having a good club with safe shooters is expensive and the rules and policies are there for a reason.  I'm not set up for .45 but would they let me just shoot the .22 part?

I concur with BE Mike's observation.  Many bullseye ranges are quite dark over the firing line, but many good scores have been shot using the "dark silhouette" of sights against the target.  Bright lights are not always better, and they can be a real problem if the front sight surface is angled the wrong direction.  Our weekly league is at a commercial range with strong lights, and my Springfield RO .45 has a front sight that is angled upward from the back to the front, and any light shining from overhead turns it into a gray visual "mush."  That gun has to be shot with a dot indoors.  But outdoors on a darker firing line, those open sights are workable.  My Smith M41 is ok under most light conditions, because it has a backward-angled front sight.    

There are certain guns and light conditions where you just have to use a dot sight.

I haven’t read any comments on the light source itself; for me with 60+ yo eyes, fluorescent lighting makes sharp vision more difficult whereas incandescent light seems to be better. Lighting balance both downrange and at firing point can be a challenge. ISSF has rules and guidelines for the lumen requirements

K38 wrote:

sam762 wrote:K38,
Come shoot at Austin Rifle Club. We have a monthly 2700 third Sunday of the month.

I might try that!  I read up on the club seems joining is complicated, but having a good club with safe shooters is expensive and the rules and policies are there for a reason.  I'm not set up for .45 but would they let me just shoot the .22 part?

Great place to shoot. Nice people and yes, you can just shoot the .22.

K38,
.22 only is fine. PM me your email and I will add you to my match distribution list. I’m the Bullseye Pistol Match Director. Thanks. 

Sam

I have 20/20 vision and find it very hard to shoot irons in most indoor ranges because lighting is just not bright enough and light seems to be in the wrong places. However, the range where I shoot air pistol on electronic targets has adequate light and using irons is not a problem. I am thinking that the lighting requirements for the indoor international events are standardized to avoid sighting issues whereas the BE game has no standard. 
I have switched to using a red dot only for indoor and it is a much better experience.

hengehold wrote:I have 20/20 vision and find it very hard to shoot irons in most indoor ranges because lighting is just not bright enough and light seems to be in the wrong places. However, the range where I shoot air pistol on electronic targets has adequate light and using irons is not a problem. I am thinking that the lighting requirements for the indoor international events are standardized to avoid sighting issues whereas the BE game has no standard. 
I have switched to using a red dot only for indoor and it is a much better experience.

Oh yeah. The ISSF rulebook has this.

Finals Ranges must have a minimum general lighting of 500 lux and minimum of 1000 lux on the firing line. For new ranges lighting of about 1500 lux on the firing line is recommended.


6.4.14 Indoor Range Light Requirements (Lux)

https://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx?mod=docf&pane=1&inst=455&file=ISSF_Rule_Book_2023_Approved_Version.pdf

K38
I’m an ARC member and yes the requirements to join have gotten more extensive. However you do NOT need to be a member to shoot any of the matches that are held weekly. The 2700 / NRA Precision Pistol is the 3rd Sunday and you have to be there by 8:30 (or earlier) to sign up and set up. Sam will add you to the email list and he sends monthly notices which include the gate code.

How I know all this is amazing since I haven’t made a match in months…

Here’s a link to the calendar. Click on any match for information on registration, etc and contact information for the match director.

https://austinrifleclub.org/arc-calendar/

Welcome to central Texas.

Rod

K38-
I had 20:500 vision, corrected to 20:20 until cataracts. After surgery, my left eye is 20:10 and right eye is 20:15. I asked for distance vision, and I got it.
In sunlight, I can read a book. On cloudy days, I depend upon +1.5 diopter reading glasses.
My eyes need as much light as available to see anything close up without wearing reading glasses.
For indoor ranges, I tried various diopters using cheap reading glass, and settled on 1.75 diopters to give me a clean and crisp front sight. Of course, I use a 6 o’clock hold, since while the front sight is crisp, the black of the target is blurry. Less blurry at 10 Meters, but 25 yards is doable. 
I prefer a red dot and no glasses
The Iris is a big help. 
Best wishes!

I could not find my Knoblocks for the life of me but I found some pistol frames with an iris on EBay from a Canadian supplier that are actually better.  They made all the difference in the world.  The front sight on my TOZ 35M and any other Irons are really sharp now.  The only thing to blame is me now!

Thanks,

Dwight

our range has walls on each side of the shooter so it's cubical like with a shelf in front of the shooter on which to rest or store one's firearm and ammo.

my friend brings a battery powered light that's about the size of a cell phone. the handle of which acts as an angled stand of sorts.

he rests the light on the shelf and it projects enough light to make a positive difference illuminating the sights and firearm.....it doesn't project enough to see the target or bother anyone else, it just helps him see the sights.. i doubt it cost more than $10.

perhaps that might help some.

One of the things that many people don't consider is that your eye adjusting to light will affect the sharpness of the image. On brighter days, your iris presents a smaller aperture and thus creates a sharper image with greater depth of field. Indoor ranges typically have very dim lighting compared to even the cloudiest days and your eyes can become quite dilated. One of the worst sight pictures I've ever seen was on a cloudy day shooting under a looooong covered firing line, almost like shooting under a 15 yd carport sort of deal. My eyes were definitely dilated and the target was no more than a grey fuzz suggestion when normally, on a bright day the target is a black ball with soft edges. 

When dryfire practicing indoors I also notice that at night, with little light coming in through the windows, my front sight is less defined because my eyes are more dilated. 

food for though