Hammerli 208 - Trigger won't reset with RedDot

Hello all!

I have a Hammerli 208 that's causing me some issues.  When I'm using the iron sights and CCI Std Velocity ammo, it functions flawlessly.  When I remove the front weights, and install the LarrysGuns pic rail adapter, and Ultradot Matchdot II, I have issues.  The main issue is that about 1 or 2 times a magazine, the trigger won't reset.  The previous shell ejects, and a new round is loaded into the chamber, but pulling the trigger is futile.  

Any ideas?

That should not cause any issues. Very strange. My guess is your pretravel screw adjustment is setup too close and not allowing the trigger bar to reset on the sear.
If you remove the grips you can watch the trigger bar reset. Be careful of the trigger bar spring flying out. You need some pretravel on the 208/208s for reliable functioning.
Jon

Here is a video of the pre-travel.  Do you think this isn't enough?
  

You need to check the resetting of the trigger bar. The video looks like enough, but visually seeing how much travel/gap the trigger bar has in relationship to the sear is how you know for sure. 
I know your problem was stemming from the change between barrel weight and optic mount. What’s happened on the front of the pistol should have no bearing on the trigger function. If some how it is I will be learning something very new, but highly unlikely.
Keep us posted.
Jon

My 208 International trigger doesn't look like that and has a plunger behind the trigger. Is that a trigger from a 208S?

Just a real wild thought, but make sure there is clearance between the scope mount and slide on both sides.  When I first got my mount from Larry's, it was shifted slightly such that it dragged the side of the slide.  All I needed to do was to loosen and retighten the side screws and it centered as it was designed to do, with plenty of clearance.

As to trigger bar to sear, as you look at the hook on the bar and operate the trigger with the right grip off, you should be able to see a small amount of movement of the hook prior to it picking up the sear arm and moving both.

Additionally, make sure you're really detecting lack of reset and not that the overtravel is set too close.

208s trigger, trigger bar etc going thru a dry fire and reset.
https://youtu.be/xX2TjMU-opM

Are you kidding me?  I did all that work to write up a response and this is what I get, and my message is gone?

From my review of the NukeMMC video, it doesn't look like enough pretravel to ensure 100% reset.  You should be able to see the trigger bar move a little bit without the sear arm moving.

As to the long post, when this happens, you should go back a page or two to return your edited text, using the browser's back arrow or sometimes ALT-Left Arrow.

Rodger Barthlow wrote:My 208 International trigger doesn't look like that and has a plunger behind the trigger. Is that a trigger from a 208S?

No idea where the trigger came from.  It came with the gun when I bought it used.  

Ed Hall wrote:Just a real wild thought, but make sure there is clearance between the scope mount and slide on both sides.  When I first got my mount from Larry's, it was shifted slightly such that it dragged the side of the slide.  All I needed to do was to loosen and retighten the side screws and it centered as it was designed to do, with plenty of clearance.

As to trigger bar to sear, as you look at the hook on the bar and operate the trigger with the right grip off, you should be able to see a small amount of movement of the hook prior to it picking up the sear arm and moving both.

Additionally, make sure you're really detecting lack of reset and not that the overtravel is set too close.

When I re-attached the scope mount, I carefully tightened the screws back and forth to try to ensure it was well balanced.  I checked, and it wasn't making any compact with the slide.  It also wasn't touching the frame/barrel at all.  

There is a chance that the problem, is the loose nut behind the gun.  I might have been rapidly releasing the trigger right as it fired, instead of practicing proper follow-through, and holding it down.  Today while shooting I held it down until long after it fired, and then when releasing I could feel it set properly.

Video of the pre-travel and then reset after firing. 


I shot 100 rounds:
1 misfired (bad ammo)
1 didn't chamber, trigger clicked on empty chamber
1 chambered, trigger wasn't set so didn't fire.  didn't extract on manual cycling of the receiver.  ejected fine
1 chambered, trigger wasn't set so didn't fire.  didn't extract on manual cycling of the receiver.  jammed between the frame and scope mount on ejection

I added some weights to the front of the scope mount, and shot another 104 rounds
2 jammed between the frame and scope mount on ejection

Your last video of the bar/sear interface looks good.  When the trigger doesn't reset, CAREFULLY (muzzle downrange) look to see if it chambered all the way before doing anything else.  Maybe even try pushing the slide forward and see if it makes a difference.

The trapped brass is most probably a separate issue.  For that, see if the brass is making it to the ejector, or if the front left magazine lip is interfering with its travel.  A quick check, if you're using Hammerli magazines, is to see if the front left lip forward tip show peening.  Can you catch a fingernail from the side?

You have to relieve some of the metal from the bottom of the mount over the chamber. Look at the underside where the brass is hitting the base. With a half inch flat file remove metal from the base at an angle from right side in without filing clear through the base. That should relieve the tight spot that traps the brass.

Rodger Barthlow
You have to relieve some of the metal from the bottom of the mount over the chamber. Look at the underside where the brass is hitting the base. With a half inch flat file remove metal from the base at an angle from right side in without filing clear through the base. That should relieve the tight spot that traps the brass.

I've seen several posts referencing this same thing.  I have a nice file, but haven't used it yet.  

Ed Hall wrote:
Your last video of the bar/sear interface looks good.  When the trigger doesn't reset, CAREFULLY (muzzle downrange) look to see if it chambered all the way before doing anything else.  Maybe even try pushing the slide forward and see if it makes a difference.

The trapped brass is most probably a separate issue.  For that, see if the brass is making it to the ejector, or if the front left magazine lip is interfering with its travel.  A quick check, if you're using Hammerli magazines, is to see if the front left lip forward tip show peening.  Can you catch a fingernail from the side?

The slide is normally all the way forward.  I'll try pushing on it.  If it happens again, i'll probably take the grips off to see what config it's actually in.  

I can catch a fingernail at the red circle spot.  The green circle spot is perfectly fine.  

As Jon said the weight has nothing to do with the problem your having. Being Blow-Back the added weight to the frame should make it work better. I doubt the slide is coming back too fast. Make sure you have failure to reset or that the hammer is following the slide. With the slide off there should be a little set screw that increases/decreases the sear spring pressure. Also If it works good without the mount look for any possibility that the slide is rubbing on the mount.

The front tip of the rear left lip is what I should have written. That is your red circled area on each magazine.  That's an indication that the lip is ejecting the brass rather than the ejector.  But, it may be due to the headspace in the slide rather than the magazines riding too high, so I wouldn't work on the magazines just based on that.  You could put some spent cases into the chamber and extract them slowly with an empty magazine inserted to see if the case contacts the lip before getting to the ejector.

Although magazines riding too high will eject the brass, a worn headspace will allow the brass to slide downward and contact the lip instead of the ejector, as well.  Signs of a worn headspace can manifest as a closing in of the area around the firing pin tunnel and a sloping away from the vertical at the bottom of the area directly across from the extractor.

Rodger Barthlow wrote:My 208 International trigger doesn't look like that and has a plunger behind the trigger. Is that a trigger from a 208S?

That's the standard factory trigger on the earlier generations of the 208. That's an overtravel adjustment on the back of the trigger.

Ed Hall wrote:Signs of a worn headspace can manifest as a closing in of the area around the firing pin tunnel and a sloping away from the vertical at the bottom of the area directly across from the extractor.

Do you think this looks worn?  

That peened over ridge to the 11 o'clock isn't doing you any favors

NukeMMC wrote:That peened over ridge to the 11 o'clock  isn't doing you any favors

I think it might just be dirty.  I'd have to check again.

High mileage breechface. If you clean it and the burr/ding goes away, put a cartridge in place on the breechface and see if the cartridge rim protrudes out beyond the stepped/countersunk breechface? So is it below or above ( when looking 90 degrees to cartridge.
Jon

The breech face has a lot of wear on it. Note the ridges from the rims sliding up along it while riding up out of the mag lips..

Also note that the firing pin is not perpendicular to the slide. It may be broken, or worn.

The slide definitely looks worn, most notable in the second and third pictures on the right of the headspace where it meets the flat underside.  That should be the same clean right angle as on the left near the extractor.

The area that looks like a peen has too much junk to all be from the peened area, but it does look like a peened section.  Perhaps the ridge of the peen has collected debris.

The firing pin does normally have some rotational play and looks OK to me, but to be sure, point the muzzle end down and press on the rear of the pin and release.  If it's broken the tip won't return back into the slide.

The slide definitely needs some work.  The most troublesome will be what I noted first.

Firing pin moves up and down, so it doesn't appear to be broken.

The are is certainly peened, here is another picture with it cleaned better.  If I understand your statement, you were saying the red lines are supposed to be 90 degrees, where they aren't.  


A shell seems to fit properly?  


The pistol certainly has some miles on it.  Is there somebody that does slide work?

The proper fix for the peen would be to move the metal back, but it wouldn't be detrimental to just remove the lip to restore the circle of the headspace in that area.  Although the peen looks small, it is possible it's enough that combined with the other area, the brass is sliding down enough to eject off the magazine lip.

The red lined area is another story.  Because that metal has moved away from the headspace, moving it back will be a challenge.*  As to repairing, there are ways to do this and even a machining based repair on my website at A Repair Procedure for Hammerli 208(s) Slides.

But, if it ejects OK for you without the scope, you may want to look at removing the portion of the mount over the ejection port and moving the scope forward on the mount, rather than trying to repair your slide.  Scope mounts are less expensive than slides.

The original post had to do with trigger reset.  I can't see anything about the slide being able to contribute to that failure, unless damage is really misaligning the cartridge with the chamber.

* I tried to move the metal back on one of my slides by using a spring loaded punch.  I put a dimple a little ways from the edge and made the dimple a little larger one punch at a time.  This was very successful, until I went one punch too many and the entire edge broke off.

Thanks for the info.  I'll have to think about what I've got to remove that peened metal.  

I'm also thinking it's probably best to leave the pistol alone, work on the scope mount, and just move on with my life.  I'd hate to make it worse.