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Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point?

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Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point? - Page 2 Empty Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point?

Post by NWSteve 3/10/2023, 10:24 am

First topic message reminder :

A few months ago, I began shooting in an indoor Thursday night match that alternates between 50', 75' (rimfire) and once a month fun shoots, center fire (75' targets at 50') and every other month an aggregate competition combining rimfire and centerfire scores (75'). We are a supportive group, and the camaraderie is great. Most of us shoot two handed with the scores separate from the one handed scores. I have worked my scores up into the 280's (300 possible) but I am reluctant to post my gains due to shooting two handed. Also, I am not sure if there would be any support in the Fundamental's section for a blasphemous two hander.

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Post by robert84010 3/14/2023, 3:12 pm

I deleted my reply because I didn't want you to create another one of your delusional diatribes that never stick to the original point. It is never worth communicating with you.

What part of the rules have been changed to allow two handed shooting do you not understand? They were changed several years ago. Have you been to an actual NRA match yet to compete? hell no because you are still unclassifed. You don't know the rules but complain to change the rules. If you don't want to joing the NRA and shoot the matches then why should they change the rules? Y

What next you want to change the CMP rules too even though you've never shot one match? 

You presonify why so many High Master shooters are no longer on this website.

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Post by mikemyers 3/14/2023, 3:41 pm

NWSteve wrote:A few months ago, I began shooting in an indoor Thursday night match that alternates between 50', 75' (rimfire) and once a month fun shoots, center fire (75' targets at 50') and every other month an aggregate competition combining rimfire and centerfire scores (75'). We are a supportive group, and the camaraderie is great. Most of us shoot two handed with the scores separate from the one handed scores. I have worked my scores up into the 280's (300 possible) but I am reluctant to post my gains due to shooting two handed. Also, I am not sure if there would be any support in the Fundamental's section for a blasphemous two hander.
The original post in this thread is what I was responding to, and I'm not trying to change what people do, but open things up so more people can be included.  I think that's important.   

I did join the NRA, and do compete at my local events, but I don't want to argue with anyone.  I think there's more to "the sport of bullseye shooting" than the big matches.  I think my shooting and matches is what NWSteve was describing.  

I apologize if what I wrote is upsetting.   I'll drop out of this discussion.

(But please do read the link I posted:  Shooting Sports.  )
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Post by msmith44 3/14/2023, 11:45 pm

CR10X wrote:We went over this the last time it was brought up.   NRA Precision Pistol Rules has a provision for shooting in this manner. Just apply for an approved match using this course of fire. 

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY
PRECISION PISTOL MATCH
Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current
rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses
of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations,
with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards
using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use
either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competition. 
Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, 
for either One or Two Hand NRA
Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be
issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should
be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of
fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. 

In the case of a standard 2700 Aggregate match with a 50 yard slow fire target line and trying to incorporate a Rule 24 match at the same time,  the range would need to be split into a 50/25 yard section and a 50 yard section.  
 
We do not have  that option since the 25 yard line is a complete unit with all targets connected.  Therefore we cannot set up to have a portion of the 25 yard line facing for the the Probational slow fire stages.   Others may have different options.
Thanks for posting this since it is a change from the January 2020 Rulebook. It wasn't in the Change notes for 2022 and I failed to check the January 2023 Rulebook.

The changes both simplify and clarify the Two Hand Rule. The Maximum Distance for Section 24 Courses of Fire is 25 yards. So, only Short Course and Gallery Course are available unless the Match Announcement signifies a different Course of Fire but the maximum is still 25 yards. The only other change that's needed is to refer to the Silhouette Target Rulebook Position Section 5.8 and Figure 3 in 5.9 which both describes and illustrates the proper Two Hand shooting position. This would address an issue you raised when Two Hand had been discussed previously.

The OP was inquiring about Two Hand specifically not how to get more shooters involved or a separate Rulebook for Two Hand PP type shooting. It's easy to get sidetracked on this issue as I frequently do. So, my apology for the digression in a previous post.

-m-


Last edited by msmith44 on 3/14/2023, 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarification)

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Post by mikemyers 3/15/2023, 6:55 am

robert84010 wrote:You presonify why so many High Master shooters are no longer on this website.
Sorry 'robert84010', (and anyone else I have offended) I apologize, and it won't happen again.  
No excuse.

The forum needs High Master shooters far more than it needs people creating controversy.
I will make an effort never to get "controversial" again.

I have enjoyed, and learned from this forum for what seems a lifetime, and I very much appreciate that.
If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know what I do, and I would still be making my old mistakes, and shooting my lousy targets.
There are a lot of people I've met through this forum that I now consider good friends.
Again, sorry.
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Post by mikemyers 3/15/2023, 7:00 am

msmith44 wrote:........ The only other change that's needed is to refer to the Silhouette Target Rulebook Position Section 5.8 and Figure 3 in 5.9 which both describes and illustrates the proper Two Hand shooting position. ......
Can you please post a link for where I can download both the 2023 rulebook, and the shooting position information?
I might be able to find the rulebook, but have no idea how to get the other information.
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Post by msmith44 3/15/2023, 11:07 am

mikemyers wrote:
msmith44 wrote:........ The only other change that's needed is to refer to the Silhouette Target Rulebook Position Section 5.8 and Figure 3 in 5.9 which both describes and illustrates the proper Two Hand shooting position. ......
Can you please post a link for where I can download both the 2023 rulebook, and the shooting position information?
I might be able to find the rulebook, but have no idea how to get the other information.
This is the link to all the NRA Rulebooks.

https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/

-m-

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Post by NWSteve 3/19/2023, 11:23 am

I want to thank everyone that weighed in on this topic. As a new shooter (4 months) I did not have benefit of the history of the sport. My view was also colored by the fact that the majority of shooters at my weekly non sanctioned match are two handed shooters.
 I am not sure what I expected from this post but I was relieved there was no "wHy dOn'T YoU JuSt lEt ThEm ResT the PiStoLs On tHe bEnCh" comment. Perhaps I had hoped for more support for a two handed shooter, maybe this is not the right forum for that kind of support. With the emergence of new shooters that are getting into bullseye and are encouraged by gains at the range shooting two handed there will be some that will step up to the challenge of giving it a go one handed.
 Looking around at other area leagues the ratio is not so heavily favoring two handed shooting, perhaps if I had started in one of those groups I would be more inclined to step up to the challenge. 
 I will most likely not ever put the kind of effort and dedication it takes to travel to sanctioned match that most of you do, I am content to participate in the weekly match at my LGS. Perhaps, down the road there will be more support and participation at national events for a two handed class and even a two handed section in this forum.

Thanks again,

Steve.

Next week, Iron sights vs red dots and should we allow gyroscopic stabilizers on our pistols? lol!

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Post by mikemyers 3/19/2023, 11:33 am

You could always buy a horse to shoot from.....    :-)
Thanks to 'wobbley' I started thinking about this.....

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Post by DA/SA 3/19/2023, 12:47 pm

I believe that the "secret" to transitioning to one hand shooting is to just do it!

I decided to try "Bullseye" and just put my other hand in my pocket and left it there from then on and also switch from right to left hand at the same time due to eye dominance. I was shooting plate racks and dualling trees as well as paper at the time, and just shot everything one handed. It didn't take very long at all to make the transition by doing so.

If you continue to shoot two handed and just try one handed occasionally it will be a far more discouraging road ahead.

Just do it!

Just my .02.
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Post by NWSteve 3/19/2023, 1:37 pm

DA/SA wrote:I believe that the "secret" to transitioning to one hand shooting is to just do it!

I decided to try "Bullseye" and just put my other hand in my pocket and left it there from then on and also switch from right to left hand at the same time due to eye dominance. I was shooting plate racks and dualling trees as well as paper at the time, and just shot everything one handed. It didn't take very long at all to make the transition by doing so.

If you continue to shoot two handed and just try one handed occasionally it will be a far more discouraging road ahead.

Just do it!

Just my .02.
I am left handed and VERY right eye dominate (amblyopia in my left eye) I have taught myself to shoot right handed, with left hand support and outfitted my Erma with a right hand match grip. Switching to one handed will be an all in proposition, shooting cross eyed left handed. Not impossible but will take a dedicated effort. Perhaps when I tire of getting high score among the other two handers I'll step up and give in to the peer pressure here. Smile

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Post by DA/SA 3/19/2023, 1:58 pm

That's why I switched to left handed for one hand shooting. I was left eye dominant and cross dominance didn't seem like a good way to go at all to me one handed. Two hand made no difference to me being cross dominant even though some make a big deal about it.
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Post by Jack H 3/19/2023, 2:09 pm

mikemyers wrote:You could always buy a horse to shoot from.....    :-)
Thanks to 'wobbley' I started thinking about this.....

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Ah never could figger out hearing protection for mah horse.
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Post by FimRire RongLifle 3/21/2023, 8:27 am

They make foam plugs for ponies. Many horses don't like their ears touched however. The earplugs are used for mounted shooting and also for the same reason one might wear them with air pistol, to not have outside distractions.
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Post by Jack H 3/21/2023, 12:42 pm

Seriously there were a lot of deaf horses according to a local rancher who provided horses to movie sets.  And Dad was a vet who cared for them sometimes.
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Post by spursnguns 3/21/2023, 1:10 pm

Greetings,

A little off the main topic but....

After forty years of training and showing quarter horses (up to the A. Q. H. A. World Show level) I firmly believe that shooting from horseback, no matter what mitigating efforts you do, is animal cruelty.  By the way, I'm no tree hugger (we hunt, rodeo, barbeque, etcetera).

Jim
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Post by Garsutt 3/21/2023, 6:16 pm

I also shoot at the range that the OP shoots at. I shoot one handed by choice.
I’ve found that in club matches you primarily shoot against yourself & bragging rights.
The range when posting scores separates one hand & two hand scores, so it’s all good.
Most everyone is there for the comradely not hard core competition anyway.

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Post by LenV 3/21/2023, 6:35 pm

No bragging rights shooting two handed. But easy to score. I shot this Friday. Ten from my Shield 380ez and ten from my 952. It was easy to tell apart. Match pistols really do fire smaller groups.

Two handed at 50ft. 
Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point? - Page 2 20230311
The point being two hands makes it too easy.
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Post by tovaert 3/21/2023, 8:44 pm

So for 2-handed (competition) you just fire on the 10 m air pistol target. One shot per bull. Problem solved.

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Post by shootingsight 3/21/2023, 9:07 pm

Seems to me that if you need one hand to control the horse, you need to up your horsemanship skills.  I saw John Wayne riding with the reins between his teeth and shooting with BOTH hands.

Of course, he was shooting two guns, so still one handed, but it is John Wayne.
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Last edited by shootingsight on 3/21/2023, 9:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by dannyd93140 3/21/2023, 9:14 pm

Fun to shoot with two hands.  50 rounds 50:yards 

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Post by shanneba 3/22/2023, 6:35 am

What if the playing field was leveled some?

Two handed shooters shoot a 25 yard Slow fire target at 50 yards.
10 ring is 1.51"
50 foot timed and rapid fire target at 25 yards
10 ring is 1.80"

One handed shooters get the normal 50 yard slow fire and 25 yard timed and rapid fire targets.
10 ring 3.36" for both 50 and 25 yard targets ( about twice the size with half the hands) Smile

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Post by NWSteve 3/22/2023, 7:47 am

Here is the latest scores from our last match (75') xxx/300. WTwo handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point? - Page 2 32362611e are not all shooting 300s and there is still a challenge getting our scores up to where they are even two handed. One handed scores on the right.

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Post by msmith44 3/22/2023, 12:32 pm

LenV wrote:No bragging rights shooting two handed. But easy to score. I shot this Friday. Ten from my Shield 380ez and ten from my 952. It was easy to tell apart. Match pistols really do fire smaller groups.

Two handed at 50ft. 
Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point? - Page 2 20230311
The point being two hands makes it too easy.
B-3 target?

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Post by msmith44 3/22/2023, 12:40 pm

shanneba wrote:What if the playing field was leveled some?

Two handed shooters shoot a 25 yard Slow fire target at 50 yards.
10 ring is 1.51"
50 foot timed and rapid fire target at 25 yards
10 ring is 1.80"

One handed shooters get the normal 50 yard slow fire and 25 yard timed and rapid fire targets.
10 ring 3.36" for both 50 and 25 yard targets ( about twice the size with half the hands) Smile
Why? Two hand shooting is a different Match from the one-hand shooting matches (see NRA PP Rules Sec. 24). It's a different game with different rules and different challenges. The games are played on different playing fields. There is no reason to level the playing field.


-m-

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Post by Mike M. 3/22/2023, 10:14 pm

I'll give the hornet's nest a thwack...it's not only blasphemy, it's ineffective. 

Think about it...one of the biggest headaches in good shooting is getting a grip and trigger movement that allows you to release the shot without disturbing the sight alignment.  Adding the pressure from a second hand will not help in this, it makes things more complex.  A second hand is useful for recoil control, nothing more.

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