Two handed shooting. Blasphemy or good for the sport as an entry point?

First topic message reminder :

A few months ago, I began shooting in an indoor Thursday night match that alternates between 50', 75' (rimfire) and once a month fun shoots, center fire (75' targets at 50') and every other month an aggregate competition combining rimfire and centerfire scores (75'). We are a supportive group, and the camaraderie is great. Most of us shoot two handed with the scores separate from the one handed scores. I have worked my scores up into the 280's (300 possible) but I am reluctant to post my gains due to shooting two handed. Also, I am not sure if there would be any support in the Fundamental's section for a blasphemous two hander.

Life is too short ... not only to argue, but also to wait to start what you really want to do. Sounds like that's one handed shooting.

When I shoot at public ranges there is a repeating phenomena where I can't see anyone else's targets when I start shooting. I put my target at 25 yards. Gradually everyone else's targets migrate slowly down range. I've seen ladies with long curly nails laughing while keeping paper at 25 yards after they saw it can be done.

Mike M. wrote:I'll give the hornet's nest a thwack...it's not only blasphemy, it's ineffective. 

Think about it...one of the biggest headaches in good shooting is getting a grip and trigger movement that allows you to release the shot without disturbing the sight alignment.  Adding the pressure from a second hand will not help in this, it makes things more complex.  A second hand is useful for recoil control, nothing more.

 You are quite correct, it is ineffective. Our club has 2 1 handed bullseye shooters and I'm one of them. The rest are 2 handers with age split 20- 35 and 50-82. The young group brings in 9s and high velocity 22 with action type sights and the older group shoot 38 special reloads in revolvers and standard velocity 22 ammo. Neither group has any desire to shoot one handed so we could never have a real NRA match. I do coach the 2 oldest guys a little and help them because they get so flustered. Now they look forward to shooting and are trying to shoot their best and they both tell me it's more fun.
 Stan

Suggestion - consider that people are not "the same", and what applies for one person might not apply to another.

With two hands, I can keep the red dot well inside of a black circle on my wall that represents the black bull on a B-8 target at 25 yards.  With one hand, I can no longer do this.

With two hands, after the past four weeks of dry-firing only, I can almost "freeze" my front sight within the rear sight.  With one hand, I can't come close.

With two hands, gripping my 9mm 1911 Springfield, or my X-Series, I can keep the gun "steady".  With one hand, after a short time, I can no longer even hold the guns up at all.

Finally, every time in the past when I tried to dry-fire one handed, and held the gun up for several dry-fires, a short time later I developed pain in my shoulder, that if I was lucky would go away in under a week, but after I used to try to dry-fire for much longer, the pain wouldn't go away for months.  


As an addendum, when I first joined my club many years ago, when at the advice of my club, I bought a Les Baer Premiere II, which I could easily shoot two handed, I was unable to hold the gun up for more than a few seconds one-handed.  ......which led me to think I'm both old, and weak.  I am not only physically unable to compete for a full match at my club one-handed, by the end of the match I wasn't even keeping my rounds on the backing board, I had a sore shoulder.  With two hands, I can shoot all day, and never even get tired.   (....and I can barely rack the slide on my 1911 guns, without pulling the hammer back first.)

I'm personally very happy that the NRA has added a category for two-handed shooting.

chopper wrote:

Mike M. wrote:I'll give the hornet's nest a thwack...it's not only blasphemy, it's ineffective. 

Think about it...one of the biggest headaches in good shooting is getting a grip and trigger movement that allows you to release the shot without disturbing the sight alignment.  Adding the pressure from a second hand will not help in this, it makes things more complex.  A second hand is useful for recoil control, nothing more.

 You are quite correct, it is ineffective. Our club has 2 1 handed bullseye shooters and I'm one of them. The rest are 2 handers with age split 20- 35 and 50-82. The young group brings in 9s and high velocity 22 with action type sights and the older group shoot 38 special reloads in revolvers and standard velocity 22 ammo. Neither group has any desire to shoot one handed so we could never have a real NRA match. I do coach the 2 oldest guys a little and help them because they get so flustered. Now they look forward to shooting and are trying to shoot their best and they both tell me it's more fun.
 Stan

Why not? Of course you can have a "real" NRA Match. Section 24 outlines the PP rules for two-hand shooting. The only thing missing is a picture of the proper unsupported arms position which can be found in the Silhouette rules. You would make history by offering the first approved or registered Probationary Two-Hand Pistol Match. Make it a .22 Aggregate and let everyone play. Heck, I'd travel there just to be a part of history.

-m-

msmith44 wrote:

Why not? Of course you can have a "real" NRA Match. Section 24 outlines the PP rules for two-hand shooting. The only thing missing is a picture of the proper unsupported arms position which can be found in the Silhouette rules. You would make history by offering the first approved or registered Probationary Two-Hand Pistol Match. Make it a .22 Aggregate and let everyone play. Heck, I'd travel there just to be a part of history.

-m-

 What would constitute an improper arm position? Does "proper unsupported" mean both arms fully extended, or am I missing something?

I'm trying to confirm that I understand this correctly.
I went to https://competitions.nra.org/media/8365/nra-precision-pistol-rules.pdf and to Section 24.

If I'm reading this correctly:

• The class name is One or Two Hand Probationary Precision Pistol Match
  
• The shooters will be mixed together, and use one or two hands, at their preference.
  
• Furthest distance would be 25 yards.
  
• Targets will be B-5, B-8, or B-16
  
• This class is in addition to, not instead of, the standard classes.
  

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH
Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competi- tion. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor compet- ing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match.

Does this mean any range putting on a match could add this to their schedule in addition to the usual programs?
It says "furthest distance would be 25 yards".  Does this imply that there would be perhaps a 15-yard section, so shooters would do both?
Is it decided which of the three targets would be used, and when?
Finally, is it stated that a certain minimum number of shooters would be required for this probationary pistol match to be held?

I hope it's OK to ask this - I'm not trying to change anything, as apparently that change already exists.  I'm just trying to understand, before I talk to the people at my club to incorporate these rules in their monthly bullseye matches.

NWSteve wrote:

msmith44 wrote:

Why not? Of course you can have a "real" NRA Match. Section 24 outlines the PP rules for two-hand shooting. The only thing missing is a picture of the proper unsupported arms position which can be found in the Silhouette rules. You would make history by offering the first approved or registered Probationary Two-Hand Pistol Match. Make it a .22 Aggregate and let everyone play. Heck, I'd travel there just to be a part of history.

-m-

 What would constitute an improper arm position? Does "proper unsupported" mean both arms fully extended, or am I missing something?

NRA Silhouette Pistol Rules Section 5.9 Freestyle, Fig 3 would be consistent with the spirit of the NRA PP Rules Section 24. The other examples in the Silhouette would not be acceptable. When you look at the examples you'll see why.


-m-

I never knew about those other "unusual" positions, but "Fig 3" is the only way I have seen people use at my club for two-hand shooting, reversed if they are left handed though.

I never understood what the big deal was until now, viewing the not-acceptable positions.  It now seems obvious why they are not allowed.  

No more questions.

mikemyers wrote:I'm trying to confirm that I understand this correctly.
I went to https://competitions.nra.org/media/8365/nra-precision-pistol-rules.pdf and to Section 24.

If I'm reading this correctly:

• The class name is One or Two Hand Probationary Precision Pistol Match
  
• The shooters will be mixed together, and use one or two hands, at their preference.
  
• Furthest distance would be 25 yards.
  
• Targets will be B-5, B-8, or B-16
  
• This class is in addition to, not instead of, the standard classes.
  

24. ONE OR TWO HAND PROBATIONARY PRECISION PISTOL MATCH
Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 - Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 - Courses of Fire and Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) two hands in these courses of fire in competi- tion. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor compet- ing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Precision Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard precision pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match.

Does this mean any range putting on a match could add this to their schedule in addition to the usual programs?
It says "furthest distance would be 25 yards".  Does this imply that there would be perhaps a 15-yard section, so shooters would do both?
Is it decided which of the three targets would be used, and when?
Finally, is it stated that a certain minimum number of shooters would be required for this probationary pistol match to be held?

I hope it's OK to ask this - I'm not trying to change anything, as apparently that change already exists.  I'm just trying to understand, before I talk to the people at my club to incorporate these rules in their monthly bullseye matches.

I believe I posted the link to the NRA PP Rules and the Silhouette Rules. Okay answers to questions:

First, what are the applicable Courses of Fire, cf. NRA Precision Pistol Rules Section 7. Hint: there are two whose scores can be used for classification purposes. There are other Courses of Fire you could use but the scores could not be used for classification purposes. The Courses of Fire determine the distance (25 yards, 20 yards, 15 yards and 50 feet), the targets to be used, and the type of fire (SF, TF, RF). The only Course of Fire that CANNOT be used in a Section 24 Match is the National Match Course (50 yards SF, 25 yards TF/RF).

Second, the courses of fire determine the targets to be used. These targets must be NRA approved for an approved or registered match.

Third, a range/club could offer two hand as an informal activity or as an approved or registered match.

Fourth, I know of no rule on the minimum or maximum number of shooters. However, common sense does indicate that it must be more than one.

Last, if I remember correctly you've posted that your home club has been offering the Marksman League Course.

And, please read the Rulebook including the Glossary. 


-m-

Thanks.

As far as I know, my club is not using a "Marksman League Course".  They have come up with something similar to what I just read from the NRA rules.  The biggest difference might be in the types of targets being used.  My club uses B-8 targets for everything, and I was trying to find out what the NRA rules suggested for two-hand.  I found three types of targets, but nothing about which gets used and when.

As for the other shooting positions - I agree they shouldn't be "legal", but I've never seen anyone in practice or matches using anything but the "normal" two-hand grip.  I guess that needed to be stated in the rules, to discourage anyone from trying it.

I'm hoping I can find a way to change what my club does now, to an "official" match from which results could be submitted to the NRA.  I know nothing about "approved" or "registered", but the people in charge I'm sure do understand this.  I guess that's my "goal".  

For a yearly match, everything I have read so far seems good.  For our monthly matches, I think most club members would be shocked to shoot at a B-16 target rather than a B-8.  Doesn't bother me at all either way, and personally, I would be happier to use what others do, even if the scores sound "lower".  :-)

Enough - no more comments or questions.  
I'll be back at my range in two weeks or so, and I will see how others at my club feel about this.

GME wrote:

At the risk of adding one more blow to this thread...While mucking around on this site I clicked on Tony's Blog and found a wealth of really good stuff intelligently presented. This particular post caught my eye...

http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2015/04/future-potential.html

Hopefully, it will help find a middle ground between those who, rightfully, want to protect the tradition of Bullseye with those who would like an expansive change.

-m-

SingleActionAndrew wrote:Life is too short ... not only to argue, but also to wait to start what you really want to do. Sounds like that's one handed shooting.

At the risk of becoming a target once again, something happened a week or so after I was involved in this discussion.  I measured my guns, to find which was the lightest, already knowing I had done this before and failed every time.  But this time I also weighed my Springfield SA-35, which weighs 2 pounds, 1 oz. with an empty magazine.  So I started dry-firing it one handed - no pain, no discomfort.  So I created a dry-fire plan to shoot two rounds, resting between them like I would in slow fire.  Still no pain.  Every day since then, I've been shooting it more, and as of today I can get up to 8 rounds, stopping between each round.  Still no shoulder pain.  I'm sure it sucks for a bullseye gun, but as a back-door for me to sneak into one hand shooting, I'm already enjoying it.

I agree - life is too short.  

By the middle of next week I get my car back, which means range trips again.  While I can hold the SA-35 steadier with both hands, it's more important to me to break into one-hand shooting.  It's a start.  ...and I enjoyed it so much, I bought another pair of VZ grips.  Ain't no way the gun is going to move in my hand unless it rips off some skin in doing so.  (Browning Hi Power Palm Swell Simonich Gunner Hyena Brown G10)

Bonus - nobody has mentioned it yet, but I've already noticed that with the gun being held so much further away from my eye, aligning the sights is easier.