Red Dot to develope pistol shooting fundamentals

I have quite often claimed the use of the Red Dot will improve shooting skills because the error made is noticeable.Learning the fundamentals are important to shooting a great score. As I have mentioned my son Adam shot Red Dot sight since he was 9 years old. He broke 2600 when he was 19! Went into Army AMU and had broken 2660! But along the way won the National Trophy service pistol match twice and President's 100. Indicating the Red Dot taught fundamentals carry over to iron sights! Adam retired from the Army AMU in 2019. Due to job requirements didn't shoot Bianchi type action shooting for 4 years. Sunday was his first return to action shooting and came in 3rd in Flagler cup Metallic division. Fundamentals when learned are not forgotten! It's fundamentals along with an accurate gun that's needed to shoot great scores.
Simply put learn the fundamentals with help of Red Dot sight and all shooting will improve!!!

I have all my shooters I train use a red dot. It tells a story that you cannot see with irons. It also makes shooting irons easier.
Jon

With a dot, how do you tell an trigger/alignment error from a stability problem?
I mean this right at the break

Any dry firing plan should include working on performing fundamental correctly and slightly imperfect. If you don’t train perfection and slightly off how can you make a correction for the slightly off and know why you’re doing it. 
Grip for example, add too much fingertip pressure and not enough. Watch the dot movement. It will show you the difference between just right, too little and too much. Dot movement isn’t always the trigger finger. It is incorrect grip in many cases. 
I hear people say they dry fire. But they’re just going through the motions. If you’re not learning and perfecting you’re just building shooting muscle and stamina.
The red dot is powerful training aid.
Hmmm, maybe I should write a book…..
Jon

You are describing something like pumping the trigger and seeing affects in the sight.  Goal is to have no affect.

My understanding is that dot provides install visual feedback against target, while target appear way more stable viewed through irons.  Wobble perceived  way more pronounced with dot!  Don't know how to say it better, and of course IMHO. 

AP

But on the down side, excess visible dot motion can lead to trigger inhibition; the fear of missing overcomes the psycology of hitting something. This usually results in a jerk and the inability to call the shot.  The proper trigger build itself leads to a stabilizing dot and a good shot that is on call. So use of irons removes some counterproductive elements.

bruce martindale wrote:But on the down side, excess visible dot motion can lead to trigger inhibition; the fear of missing overcomes the psycology of hitting something. This usually results in a jerk and the inability to call the shot.  The proper trigger build itself leads to a stabilizing dot and a good shot that is on call. So use of irons removes some counterproductive elements.

Down side? Perform fundamentals as described in most shooting text and there is no down side.
Grip Gun
Aim Gun
Fire Gun
Shoot Good Shot

Definitely a small transition period from irons to dot, but application of the “TRUE” fundamentals will keep shots within the wobble area of the hold. 
Inhibition is thinking about negatives instead of focusing on positives. Accept hold and pull trigger cleanly. Pretty simple but easily jacked up because not believing in the fundamentals. BE shooting is fundamentally driven. That’s why HM focus on performance and execution. Shot plan is normally over complicated and not simple enough. Too much thinking equates to more bad shots.

Regardless of sight’s being used, not accepting hold leads to forced shots; marksmen to low expert.

Jon

bruce martindale wrote:But on the down side, excess visible dot motion can lead to trigger inhibition; the fear of missing overcomes the psycology of hitting something. This usually results in a jerk and the inability to call the shot.  The proper trigger build itself leads to a stabilizing dot and a good shot that is on call. So use of irons removes some counterproductive elements.

True enough, but after a few weeks of training (2-3 times a week) I found that the dot will settle down for a few seconds. It won’t stop, but the motion will be less. Lately I’m finding that if the dot settles on the center and I can break a clean shot, it’s almost always a ten and often an X.

I think there's a misconception about wobble area. If you have an 8 ring hold and shoot your hold, you will have 8's, 9's, 10's and X's. Not just 8's. The mission is uninterrupted trigger squeeze within the hold. If it's out of the wobble area it's 99.9% trigger finger error. Most trigger pulling errors are because you didn't accept your wobble area/hold and you helped the shot off; forced shot. Forced shots for a Master are 9's. The lower classifications typically in the white. Holding too long after you should have broke the shot is another common reason for shooting outside your hold. 
If you accept your hold and just squeeze the trigger positively (with purpose) and break the shots before your hold starts to fail you will stay within your hold. Problem is its to easy to try and wait for the hold to get better and better until we've went past the ideal time to break the shot. We should abort and start over again. 
How many shooters actually TRAIN shooting the TRUE fundamentals? I always have my shooters I coach go back to the beginning when they've hit a plateau.  The fundamentals are simple and easy to apply. But it's more fun to just sling lead instead of train.
Jon

Gosh, that was bad

The simple fact as to why the red dot helps is that in order to fix a problem you have to see that it exists. Yes the red dot lets you see your arc of movement, accept it and do what you can ti minimize it. However if you see the dot quickly traveling in a particular direction when pulling the trigger your creating it. This movement is not noticeable with iron sights but very noticeable with the red dot. Like the gun requires accuracy, good accurate red dots is also needed, I would not buy one of those $29 red dots on ebay! Combined the gun and the red dot must at the time the bullet leaves the barrel indicate with in 2" or less where the bullet will hit the target.

Jon, I shot a 2700 last week and had a rough go. It was spread out intermingled whitey's and some great center groups in the black. This was the 1st outdoor match this year and overwhelming.
 Besides not training properly for the whole match and practicing at the range. I notice one very important thing that I don't do is, to focus on the job at hand. I feel dumb asking but, could you and other M-HM's explain what you focus on and visualize on before you lift the pistol for a shot.
 When I shoot I still have to remember to work the trigger, and get the slack up on the last command. Improving on slowfire, but sustained is more 8's at 12 or jerks at low left and high right.
 I will train more with the purpose that you mention above, I think I'm squeezing my grip or maybe something else.
 I appreciate all the help I can get.
Thanks, Stan

I visualize my learning and teach this:
All we are doing is shooting down a tube 3-1/2" inches in diameter (size of the 10 ring).
Wobble is irrelevant (my mentor taught me the black bull is there to distract you from a good trigger press).
Consistent grip is necessary
Uninterrupted trigger press is paramount.

I was watching a TV documentary. It was a group or researchers wanting to know why or how some people become winners while others also-rans. They pick shooters to test because they were easiest to attach sensors. After-all shooters are required to be as stationary as possible while shooting. They used college small bore rifle shooters. Later in the interview they discussed what was going thru their mind as they made each shot while showing the projected impact location of the bullet prior to being fired and eventual impact when fired.
 I was quite surprised at what they said. Girl that was the top shooter on he team was listening to classic music in her head, as she approached the moment the gun fired the music faded and shot was fired, Her score was great. Next was a guy that was also very good, he did the same but music in his hear was rock. Also resulted in good score. Then a another shooter that wasn't on the team but part of the shooting program. They showed the projected bullet impact that was nearly identical to the 2 previous shooters but actual impact when bullet was fired was not as good. They asked him what was going thru is mind as they did with the other two. His reply was trigger pull, sight alignment etc!! That reminded me as to Adam bringing a tape player with ear plugs when practicing alone at the club.
 I've told others do not think about the trigger, you analyze the pull and concentrate on the problem. If the pull weight seem high it will get higher as you think about it, if there is a slight tick it will get greater as you shoot and so on with other issues. Accept everything and shoot as good as possible. Problems are fixed later!!!

Frank that is fascinating. I've shot some targets and it seemed like I was in a trance, but the groups were great. Did Adam listen to music on his tape player?

Yes he listened to the music. I'm thinking it was a few of his favorite songs. I didn't say anything because he kept getting better. At 19 he broke 2600 and he was 20 when he won the National Trophy Individual (Service pistol match) he was still a Jr shooter. I'm thinking he was the youngest to have ever won that match. I too had my best matches when didn't think about anything. Trying too hard made me shoot lousy. I did my best just going to the line and shoot, No I didn't talk to all the other competitors on the line, was on the line to shoot my best. Talking and getting along with the others was after shooting so while shooting I did as little as possible.

I try to not only visualize the dot in the center of black (ideal target picture if irons), but also the feeling of having a great trigger break at that moment, the recoil and follow-through. I’ll visualize all five shots of sustained. I try to include getting a clean shot off as target turns to start the string. 

It’s not just what you see, but what you hear, feel, smell, etc.

Something I read was about seeing yourself  doing what you want to do and your minds eye will work to make it true.

PhotoEscape wrote:My understanding is that dot provides install visual feedback against target, while target appear way more stable viewed through irons.  Wobble perceived  way more pronounced with dot!  Don't know how to say it better, and of course IMHO. 

AP

Front sight in the rear notch provides instant visual feedback about sight alignment, and trigger and grip affect on alignment.