The Fundamentals of the Pistol Box!

I was looking at the Topic in Equipment regarding Pistol Box Design. Then I realized that to my recollection, no one has addressed the 6th fundamental....the Pistol Box!
We have stance, breathing, grip, sight alignment/picture and TRIGGER CONTROL. We've been neglecting teaching the proper use of the pistol box. It is a tool and in most cases improperly used. How we stand and scope should be as important as how we apply the other fundamentals. I watch too many shooters move their feet to scope shots or layout their equipment in a scattered manner with no after thought as to how things are placed.
So I thought I'd throw this out for comments
I truly believe it can aid our shooting or be a distraction.
Jon

my box pretty much throws up all its stuff on the bench, but i don't have to move my body to get to anything.  As a lefty shooter i keep the box on my left side, just a slight twist and i can look through the scope. I use a 45 degree eye piece.

I just kind of thought it was common sense to set up everything where it is convenient to reach an in a timely manner if need be. Also in a manner that did not require moving around drasticly or breaking stance/feet position. 

If there are shooters that don’t think of this or don’t plan for this then absolutely this could be something worth looking in to. However probably not the most crisitcal in terms of fundamentals. Though I do see it’s worth in mentioning it for those new to the sport.

The box holds your guns in transit yes, but it could hold the things you find yourself in need of immediately during the match. Having those things laid out on the table where they can be reached quickly but at the same time not in the way of anything or your shooting/loading is important. A bullseye match can move right along so it’s inportant to be prepared in many ways. Not just having the tools but the manner in which you access them too. 

The spotting scope as well - there are people that prefer straight eye pieces and angled eye pieces and which one you chose may be because of how yo stand at the table and near your box. 

There is much to think about in how your equipment is organized, and accessed during the match and in what equipment you choose to fit your needs. 

An endless topic perhaps.

The 1st rule of the pistol box:
No matter what's inside is: A place for everything and everything in it's place.

Nothing worse than waiting on someone that knows he has "it" in there somewhere.  The "it" could be batteries, snake, oil, or the wrench to tighten your conversion guide rod...etc...  Having to look for "it" puts undue stress on you and sucks for everyone else.
- Dave

I carry a box and a bag. Nothing is in the box that I won't likely need. I use velcro in the interior sides of the box to hold oil, Aimpoint adjusting tool, etc. Any secondary items are in the bag, there if I need them but out of the way.

Also, my scope is angled and the eyepiece swivels. I set it up low, and angled upward (weather permitting). That way it's minimal movement for me to check my call.

As mentioned in a previous post, I think storing pistols in a pistol box is a waste of valuable space.

yep..

Jon's point is important.  Once you have the best position, especially your feet, you should not move unless you really have to. (For scoping, finding screwdriver, reloading, etc. until the string if finished.)  He's using the gun box as a fundamental to help reinforce that.  

Get everything done so you don't have to waste any time moving, or fidgeting, or re-gripping, or shifting position once you raise the gun for firing.  It just eats up time and disrupts the flow.  When you've got everything right, then you can start the gun from the bench and just shoot the shot. 

CR.

The thing I have noticed with shooters boxes with straight scopes is that the person is always leaning way over to look in the scope.

Jon I know what you're saying. As a rifle shooter I learned to set up my scope so close that I could shift my eyes from the sight to the scope with absolutely no change in my prone position. This also enabled me to check wind and shoot as quickly as my puller could pull my target. I remember seeing new and inexperienced shooters belly crawl over to their scope after every shot. By the same token I've seen pistol shooters walk over to their box after every shot.

Jim

Jon mentioned something I don't think was picked up on.  Unless you are really tall, or the bench is very short, snuggling up close to the box on a windy day can help you fight the wind.

Dr.Don wrote:Jon mentioned something I don't think was picked up on.  Unless you are really tall, or the bench is very short, snuggling up close to the box on a windy day can help you fight the wind.

Snuggling the gun box takes PRACTICE. It can be a distraction until you get comfortable doing it. Recoiling pistol close to the lid/scope can be controlled crash
Jon

It seems to me that the shooting table can become more of a shooting slot between the gun box & brass catcher.
If you're not organized in your set up hilarity & panic can erupt.

Jon Eulette wrote:

.....so that they don't move their feet between shots to scope. ....

Jon, before I read this, I just naturally assumed people would move to the side to look through the scope, then move back to shoot.  I would have been doing that if I already had a box and scope, (which I don't).  I'm doing things wrong anyway, by putting the gun down, maybe moving (don't remember) and using my binoculars).  I'm also making yet another mistake by not shooting directly behind my bench - there is an open area alongside it, and without much thought, I just move there to shoot.    ....thanks for posting this!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect I would keep everything in the box in its proper place, take them out as needed, and then replace them.  I like having an un-cluttered work bench, but without a box I don't seem to have much of a choice.  The shooting bag I got for going to/from the range is very good, but not very convenient.  I know my tools are all in there - somewhere.  

Is a "brass catcher" a must-have, or just something a few people use so they don't lose their brass?

An advantage of being cross dominant is that I don't have to do much more than lean over to see thru my spotting scope.
I may not be a good shot but my box & work area are well organized so there isn't any rummaging around.
My brass catcher is for my benefit at practice (the ground seems to be getting farther away & I practice on a gravel range) and more of a good neighbor thing at matches.

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:......(the ground seems to be getting farther away ....) .....

Steve, my problem is that the ground seems to be getting lower every year!   :-)

mikemyers wrote:

Jon Eulette wrote:

.....so that they don't move their feet between shots to scope. ....

Jon, before I read this, I just naturally assumed people would move to the side to look through the scope, then move back to shoot.  I would have been doing that if I already had a box and scope, (which I don't).  I'm doing things wrong anyway, by putting the gun down, maybe moving (don't remember) and using my binoculars).  I'm also making yet another mistake by not shooting directly behind my bench - there is an open area alongside it, and without much thought, I just move there to shoot.    ....thanks for posting this!

Mike, you were my motivation for starting this topic. I read your words in the pistol box design topic and started this one. Basically precision pistol shooting is like trying to be a robot. Replicating each movement exactly the same way. It's about being consistent!
Jon

So many things I thought "knew", but not really.  I try to hold the gun exactly the same way each time, but I never thought about a lot of other things.  Thanks!

I learned a few tricks by watching shooters on previous relays.
I watched Judy Tant sight line her box to the target so it was on target when she opened it.
I learned first hand you open the box BEFORE you affix your shell catcher.
Ways to affix the box and shell catcher to the bench, TF is not a good time to use your off hand to hold them in a wind gust.

CR10X wrote:Jon's point is important.  Once you have the best position, especially your feet, you should not move unless you really have to. (For scoping, finding screwdriver, reloading, etc. until the string if finished.)  He's using the gun box as a fundamental to help reinforce that.  

Get everything done so you don't have to waste any time moving, or fidgeting, or re-gripping, or shifting position once you raise the gun for firing.  It just eats up time and disrupts the flow.  When you've got everything right, then you can start the gun from the bench and just shoot the shot. 

CR.

This is so important. I had the importance reinforced just this weekend at a match in Portland. In the second string of timed fire in the 45 match my dot went out on the 2nd shot. I knew I should of had enough time to play with the dot and try and get it back on. That didn't work. With about 5 seconds left I just had to take what I could get. I had already lost my right to call an alibi since I had fiddled with the pistol. I had never moved my feet or changed my grip so all I had to do was raise my arm and shoot. Shot a 97. The dot came back on on the 4th shot. I don't advocate trying to get your dot working in the middle of a string but if everything goes south on you in the middle of a string your fundamentals are very important.

LenV wrote:

CR10X wrote:Jon's point is important.  Once you have the best position, especially your feet, you should not move unless you really have to. (For scoping, finding screwdriver, reloading, etc. until the string if finished.)  He's using the gun box as a fundamental to help reinforce that.  

Get everything done so you don't have to waste any time moving, or fidgeting, or re-gripping, or shifting position once you raise the gun for firing.  It just eats up time and disrupts the flow.  When you've got everything right, then you can start the gun from the bench and just shoot the shot. 

CR.

This is so important. I had the importance reinforced just this weekend at a match in Portland. In the second string of timed fire in the 45 match my dot went out on the 2nd shot. I knew I should of had enough time to play with the dot and try and get it back on. That didn't work. With about 5 seconds left I just had to take what I could get. I had already lost my right to call an alibi since I had fiddled with the pistol. I had never moved my feet or changed my grip so all I had to do was raise my arm and shoot. Shot a 97. The dot came back on on the 4th shot. I don't advocate trying to get your dot working in the middle of a string but if everything goes south on you in the middle of a string your fundamentals are very important.

You show off you =]

It seems to me that when someone gets to the level you guys are shooting at, this is excellent advice.  If it's for someone who is struggling to get better, it is also good advice.

...but...

After doing things the same way for weeks, I sometimes wondered how one small change might work out.  Sometimes the chang helped, and sometimes not.  If I became convinced that the change was beneficial, then that became my new "standard".  


I've also noticed that my memory is rather fuzzy over time.  Doing things several times a week makes it easy for me to "repeat".  Stopping for a month and then picking up where I left off is something else.  Er, where exactly does this part of my body go...?  Maybe eventually this will become easier, or maybe I'll just need to practice more often even when I can't be near a gun.

================================

I've got something else buzzing around in my head.  I used to find this article fascinating, and it seemed to explain so much:
http://accuracy.martinchick.com/handgun_rifle.html
I know what the article is trying to explain, and for the most part I agree, but there is one big "BUT" which the discussion here makes clear.

I'll use myself as an example.  I was reasonably good at shooting 3" groups at 15 yards last year.  I was thoroughly puzzled because the groups were each clustered over a different spot on the target.  This article claims that it is all random, and the next shot can be anywhere within that much larger area that contains all the groups.

BUT, I've realized that the explanation is that almost certainly, I was not holding/shooting the gun the same way between groups.  If the author of that article was to read this discussion, he would probably need to revise what he wrote.  In other words, if I've just shot a 3" group a little high and to the right, and I load an 11th round, without changing anything, that round is much more likely to go into that same group, and not "anywhere" that my groups were included in.  

What seems obvious to me now, was anything BUT obvious a year ago.  I never was smart enough to figure out why the "clusters" were located in different areas of the target - maybe only a couple of inches or so, but it was very clear what was going on.  

(This improved when I started to pick up my gun with the non-shooting hand, and place it into the shooting hand, and it improved a lot more after starting to follow all the advice here.  When I have my own "shot process", that is almost certain to help greatly.)

I never gave it any thought when I started shooting Bullseye.  I shot 3 position indoor rifle in college and as such your scope was placed so that you did not break from your position.  When I began shooting pistol I just placed the box and scope such that I did not break position.  It was just the natural thing to do and I never gave it any thought.  I can see where it is something that every shooter needs to do and understand why you should add it to your shot process.

I've been shooting bullseye since 1970 and have always set my box up on the right hand side of me. I am a right handed shooter so is my box positioned correctly or should it be on my left side as I have occasionally read in other articles on this subject?