Request for Assistance-Is Bullseye Pistol Waxing or Waning; Looking for some stats

First topic message reminder :

Hi all. Some elements of our local NW Ohio conservation club, with the only indoor 50 yd and separate indoor 25 yd non-commercial range around, are souring on Bullseye pistol shooting claiming "the sport is dying out".  I'm looking for some numbers from CMP and NRA to get an idea of how many matches and participants they are aware of in 2023 to date and in 2022 vs. likely covid lows in 21 and 20.  I shot competitively for OSU in the 70s and later in the Army and am getting back into it now that I'm retired.  I'd greatly appreciate learning contacts you may have in both organizations that might readily have this type of data at hand I can use to support my efforts to rebuild the local program leading up to a postal and or traveling league and hosting some state matches again.  Thanks in advance for your assistance.

It was short, it was sweet, Ha! We loved it!

The Muppet Heckelers

There's a very large shooting facility near where I live ran by the state Parks and Wildlife (https://cameosec.org/). When I've shot there, other users look at me like I'm nuts. 'One-handed?' 'You can't hit it that far away!'

When I asked management if there are any plans for precision pistol/bullseye, the response was 'what's that?'

This is supposed to be a world class facility.

JRV wrote:Par times aren’t “time on the gun.”  That’s the total time you have to fix your gun in the event of a malfunction.  The example of a major USPSA match more than makes my point:

The most recent Battle for the North Coast was a 270+ round count match with 10 total stages plus a “chrono” ammo testing stage.  

If you check the results on Practiscore, the top half of competitors had total times between three and four minutes.  The slowest time I could find was about ten minutes.  

Those folks paid $140 bucks, plus ammo costs, to shoot “all day,” and they spent less time with their hands on their guns than a single slowfire string.  The slowest guy spent less than 1% of his time out there touching a gun; 99%+ of his time was spent making small talk and putting paster stickers on targets.

It took me fifteen years of practical pistol matches to realize I was spending the vast majority of my time standing around and doing chores while wearing an empty gun.  TargetPistolGuy’s YouTube channel was the “lightbulb” moment for me, because all of his match videos showed lines of people shooting constantly.  That looked nice—and it was.

I shot Cowboy for couple of years, same thing as USPSA, but your can use a Red Dot and wear shorts.  

adminbot1911 wrote:

john bickar wrote:There are a few bright spots, folks; don't get too discouraged.

The Naval Postgraduate School (NPS) at Monterey is reviving their Bullseye program. This makes me happy. This program has the legacy of Gordon Nakagawa and RJ Thomas. I have been fortunate enough to work with some of these Sailors and Marines and they are legitimately interested in Bullseye, and they are squared away when I see them on the firing line.

Thank goodness.  When I heard that NPS was shelving their program a few years back... "disappointed" was an understatement.

 
It turns out that when an organization dies you can simply declare it to exist again and most of the time no one objects.

Of course, NSWC Crane recalled our guns and Captain Crunched them, so now we have to convince our students that they need to buy $3000 pistols…in California.

JRV wrote:I 
Pat Kelley (an industry journalist, big Steel Challenge guy, and a Federal/Speer ambassador) has been flooding forums and social media with bullseye-related content lately.  

Patrick has inherited the Monday Night Bullseye group in Spokane. He shot in the Inland Empire Pistol postal matches and called the line when the group's organizer's ill health forced him to relinquish his responsibilities. Patrick will be back in October. Patrick is  Pied Piper of sorts and he brought 3 new shooters with him last fall. All shot two-handed. That made four out of 15 shooters on the "regular shooter" list. The Center Target in Post Falls has a Thursday night bullseye group with 4 one-hand shooters and around 20 two-hand shooters during the winter.

The NRA Rules allow Match Directors flexibility in the design of Approved and Registered Matches. If a Match has a classification component it has to have an  approved course of fire, e.g., National Match, Short Course, etc. Two-hand has course of fire restrictions the are clearly stated in the rules. 

I'll ask the question I've been asking for almost two years: How many Two-Hand Provisional Matches, approved by the NRA, been held since 2013 when the rule went into effect?

Recently there was a thread on the changes in earning a Distinguished Badge. There was the "it's gotten too easy" group tempered by comments about how things change and we move with the change. One comment stood out for me: the changes did not diminish the achievement of those who earned the Distinguished Badge twenty years ago (paraphrase). 

I empathize with the older shooters who see the sport changing. I feel the same way when I see the sport the first introduced me to competitive shooting. But sports change... baseball has a pitch clock, the NFL changes rules every year it seems, hockey is another example but we continue to watch and in some cases participate.

Bullseye is a difficult shooting discipline. It is difficult whether you do it unsupported with one hand or two. In both versions the goal is to put a hole in a small space called the bullseye. Perhaps, if we recognized what the game really is, we could celebrate the achievements of both one and two-hand shooters and attract new shooters in the process.


-m-

Marvin Smith

From another angle. Are the number of gunsmiths or custom shops who can build and do build 1911s capable of shooting 1 1/2" or less at 50 yds increasing or decreasing? How long is the wait to get such a gun from one of those existing few and far between gunsmiths? 3,8,10,12, 15 or more months is likely the case with 8-12 probably more realistic. 

Those of us over 60 were likely taught to be patient. Keep in mind anyone under 70 has grown up on fast food. Anyone under 50 has grown up with cell phones and fax machines and anyone under 30 has grown up with ordering stuff on their phone and having it delivered, same or next day.

Ammo? Just about any off the shelf CF ammo in 9mm, 40 or 45 acp purchased from a store, Walmart or online is suitable for the IDPA crowd. USPSA suitable ammo is a bit more challenging, but it can happen. Where today and at what cost can one obtain .45 acp ammo suitable for the $2,500 - 7,000 bullseye gun you waited a year for?

In IDPA, USPSA, ICORE and NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi) one typically chooses whether they want to shoot Production, Metallic or Open Division guns. You only need one, as each division is a stand alone. Today, if you go to about any gun store or most ranges and you say you want to get into 3 gun, they will start talking about a rifle, a shotgun and a pistol, not a 2700. 

IMO, NRA and CMP at a minimum should permit someone to shoot the entire 1200, 1800 or 2700 with a single gun. If a single gun, it must be a .45. Why not? We can already shoot a .45 in CF in lieu of a .40, 38, 9 or .32. Why not let someone shoot a .45, .40. .38, 9 or .32 in lieu of a .22? Any argument that a .45 would have a competitive advantage over someone shooting a .22 would be a weak argument other than bullet hole size. 

I came over from the PPC and Action shooting side at first in 2006. I found the sport boring as heck. It took all day. It felt like I spent more time scoring and changing targets than anything else. I quit after a few months. After a few more years of action shooting, as I had a few goals that I wanted to pursue, I decided to jump back into and try BE again in about 2019

This was in part to fulfil a promise that I made to two person who meant a great deal to me. Charlie Byrd and James E. "Jim" Collins. They both kept telling me to shoot BE, starting about 45 years ago. I jokingly told them I wasn't old enough yet. They have both perished now, but I honor a promise. I wish that I had started shooting BE like I did the other stuff in the 70's. Oh well.

The sad truth based on my observations and experiences is that BE/PP is declining. I'm quite sure the numbers across the board, with the exception of a few clubs will support that. I find this sad. Cost of shooter equipment and ammo, the cost of a suitable range with 20 or more firing points and a 50 yd line. The cost of turning targets, controllers, the need for electricity and perhaps one of the bigger challenges, getting line officers to assist in running the matches. All of these have become hard to overcome, compared to the person who can buy a couple boxes a cheap 9mm ammo, get an off the shelf out of the box Glock, Beretta, S&W and a few others, buy a few mags, pouches, get a plastic holder and belt, put it all in a pillow case or shoebox or gun bag, sign up for an AM or PM squad. Shoot, have fun, pat each other on the back and be done in a few hours. Bottom line IMO it is harder to find "fun" in BE/PP than it is the other shooting games. I couldn't find it on my first attempt 15 or so years ago, but I have found it now. It is there, you have to be patient, it'll surface.

Out.

.22 only 2700 is really a lot of fun. Costs are very manageable and it's a great learning experience. Anything we can do to promote that angle would likely help. 

Best, 
Arthur

A Geezer reflects...

I shot my first Match in July 1976. It was the Pacific NorthWest Regional at Paul Bunyan Rifle and Pistol Club.

50 yard slow fire was conducted on the rifle range. The Pistol Shed has 22 firing points with turning targets. The 25 yard portion was held there.

55+ shooters for the 2700. Three relays and the match was a two day event.

At the end of each day were the Team Matches. Saturday was 22lr and CF. Sunday was the 45 Team and DCM Leg Match.

The clubhouse had a kitchen with hot burgers, hot dogs and sandwiches to buy cheap.

The Military had a big presence. Marine Corps Reserve, Washington National Guard, Washington Air Guard, and "maybe" the US Customs from Blaine, WA., I do not remember.

Yesterday, I shot the Pacific Northwest Regional at the Cascade Shooting Range in Ravensdale, WA. We had 11 shooters that fired the entire Match, an 1800, not the usual 2700.

There were no Masters entered. Well, yes, one Master. I chose to shoot in the Master class as I was getting beat up in the Expert class.

The winning score was 1681x51. A good solid Expert score.

There were three "Bling" matches. CMP Service Pistol, CMP 22 Pistol, and NRA Distinguished Revolver. Entries were 6-7 non-distinguished shooters each. Just enough to award a minor "Leg" in each event. There was a CMP Distinguished Service Revolver Match that did not have enough entries to sanction. (Note to self, look the last one up. New to me.)

I did witness 4-5 new shooters. A young woman and her boyfriend shot to my right and their 45 targets were most encouraging! The other young shooters arrived to shoot the "Bling" matches. Perhaps there is hope...

Cheers,

Dave

.....

If people were allowed to shoot the three legs of the match with one pistol or revolver, I do believe you would get some more participants.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A good way to get the sport to grow is shooters introducing their friends and family to the sport. Nothing beats one-on-one. As a deeply individual sport, there are plenty of old bullseye shooters who aren't welcoming and turn some sensitive folks off. There are plenty of two handed shooting sports for folks to try. They don't need any more. As the military and police have reduced support of the sport, it has declined. Judging by gun magazine articles, I'd say that if it isn't about self-defense or military, there isn't much interest. The military, police and competitive shooters and pistol trainers for the most part don't consider bullseye pistol shooting relevant and is not a part of training as it once was. Bullseye pistol champs used to be regularly featured in many magazine articles and Camp Perry was a well known place, even among non-competitors. Bullseye is hard and takes a lot of determination to succeed, even moderately. It is physically demanding, if one shoots an outdoor 2700. It has never been a sport where millions of people participate regularly. Lots of folks, these days, don't want that great of a challenge and most old folks can't handle it. I don't think that cost is much of a deterrent for someone truly interested in the sport. Shotgun shooting is far more popular and the cost of equipment is pretty high. When I first started, I shot a cheap Ruger MKI for a long time and still had a good time. I used an old camera bag to carry my pistol, ammo and binoculars. I don't see changing the rules as having a significant impact on participation. One by one, local gun clubs are dropping bullseye pistol matches and converting the ranges to other sports. If misery loves company, golf has been slowly declining in popularity for over 15 years. Having said that, there are still millions who participate pretty regularly.

john bickar wrote:

John B Fowler wrote:Hi all. Some elements of our local NW Ohio conservation club, with the only indoor 50 yd and separate indoor 25 yd non-commercial range around, are souring on Bullseye pistol shooting claiming "the sport is dying out".  I'm looking for some numbers from CMP and NRA to get an idea of how many matches and participants they are aware of in 2023 to date and in 2022 vs. likely covid lows in 21 and 20.  I shot competitively for OSU in the 70s and later in the Army and am getting back into it now that I'm retired.  I'd greatly appreciate learning contacts you may have in both organizations that might readily have this type of data at hand I can use to support my efforts to rebuild the local program leading up to a postal and or traveling league and hosting some state matches again.  Thanks in advance for your assistance.

If assume you mean Oak Harbor. If Bullseye at Oak Harbor is shut down, I will cry. That's where I broke 2600 for the first time. I have many fond memories there.

I can't give you much in the way of data, but I can give you plenty of anecdotes to support your Club continuing to support Bullseye Pistol.

As far as I know Oak Harbor shut down Bullseye during Covid, ran maybe 1 match a few years ago and nothing since. I hope I'm wrong. Its a great range. If I am mistaken the issue may be that the match info isnt getting out.

BE Mike wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again. A good way to get the sport to grow is shooters introducing their friends and family to the sport. Nothing beats one-on-one. As a deeply individual sport, there are plenty of old bullseye shooters who aren't welcoming and turn some sensitive folks off. There are plenty of two handed shooting sports for folks to try. They don't need any more. As the military and police have reduced support of the sport, it has declined. Judging by gun magazine articles, I'd say that if it isn't about self-defense or military, there isn't much interest. The military, police and competitive shooters and pistol trainers for the most part don't consider bullseye pistol shooting relevant and is not a part of training as it once was. Bullseye pistol champs used to be regularly featured in many magazine articles and Camp Perry was a well known place, even among non-competitors. Bullseye is hard and takes a lot of determination to succeed, even moderately. It is physically demanding, if one shoots an outdoor 2700. It has never been a sport where millions of people participate regularly. Lots of folks, these days, don't want that great of a challenge and most old folks can't handle it. I don't think that cost is much of a deterrent for someone truly interested in the sport. Shotgun shooting is far more popular and the cost of equipment is pretty high. When I first started, I shot a cheap Ruger MKI for a long time and still had a good time. I used an old camera bag to carry my pistol, ammo and binoculars. I don't see changing the rules as having a significant impact on participation. One by one, local gun clubs are dropping bullseye pistol matches and converting the ranges to other sports. If misery loves company, golf has been slowly declining in popularity for over 15 years. Having said that, there are still millions who participate pretty regularly.

We were not Sensitive folks, the old guy's back in the 80's were jerks where I was at, but before one of them took the dirt nap he explained why he and buddies were jerks.  New young shooter's had good eyes and steady hands, so those guy's would start loosing matches.  At least he was honest on the way out.

22 only is a big plus. Lets you shoot what you have. That gets folks in. As a non BE guy, a long time ago, I was turned off by the professed need for unobtainable and expensive equipment. Plus the wait to get it.

My first cf gun was a 52, precise right out of the box. It was  a while before I got a used Clark 45. Matches an hour away got me interested.

orpheoet wrote:

john bickar wrote:

John B Fowler wrote:Hi all. Some elements of our local NW Ohio conservation club, with the only indoor 50 yd and separate indoor 25 yd non-commercial range around, are souring on Bullseye pistol shooting claiming "the sport is dying out".  I'm looking for some numbers from CMP and NRA to get an idea of how many matches and participants they are aware of in 2023 to date and in 2022 vs. likely covid lows in 21 and 20.  I shot competitively for OSU in the 70s and later in the Army and am getting back into it now that I'm retired.  I'd greatly appreciate learning contacts you may have in both organizations that might readily have this type of data at hand I can use to support my efforts to rebuild the local program leading up to a postal and or traveling league and hosting some state matches again.  Thanks in advance for your assistance.

If assume you mean Oak Harbor. If Bullseye at Oak Harbor is shut down, I will cry. That's where I broke 2600 for the first time. I have many fond memories there.

I can't give you much in the way of data, but I can give you plenty of anecdotes to support your Club continuing to support Bullseye Pistol.

As far as I know Oak Harbor shut down Bullseye during Covid, ran maybe 1 match a few years ago and nothing since. I hope I'm wrong. Its a great range. If I am mistaken the issue may be that the match info isnt getting out.

I too have found memories at Oak Harbor. First 'real' match and first over all match wins for me were at Oak Harbor. Since I started shooting in 2019 I don't think I ever missed at match there. However also since I started shooting, from my personal perspective, the club having well motivated people volunteering to run matches at Oak Harbor had always been a challenge. I miss shooting at Oak Harbor in the winter, shooting at 50' sucks by comparison. 

Running a match is a lot of work, match directors are almost always the first one to the range and last ones to leave. People will always complain about how something is done at a match, and the majority of shooters don't even acknowledge the amount of effort it takes to put on a match. Clubs in general don't like closing their facilities to members on weekends for 5-6 people who are not members to shoot, especially for minimal monetary return.

As far as younger shooters. Most recent college grads cant afford to compete, even if they already own their own equipment. Most college kids shoot international disciplines, which means no 45, so to shoot a full 2700 they would need some sort of 45. Add on to that ammo costs (~$150/2700match, remember college kids don't have 20 years worth of reloading supplies stashed up) and travel, this is an expensive game. For the slightly older but younger than average shooter say mid 20s to mid 30s, most that I know balance their activities with being a good Parent and spending time with their kids (perhaps at soccer, baseball, dance class, ect.).

Multiracer wrote:"A 900 takes about an hour and a half.  Thirty minutes of SF, a minute of TF, and thirty seconds of RF, and the rest is scoring, loading mags, and walking."
Has anyone entertained the thought of cutting the time it takes to shoot slow fire in half ?   

Extra time is dispensed with should everyone finish. There are folks however who use every second but to their detriment mostly. Put the gun up, and execute the shot, take doubles if it holds. Result: done in 4 minutes. The disruptions in BE, scoring and repairs, breaks my groove. That’s one difference between my practice and competition. Id love to have 2 or 3 targets up and get it done.

Multiracer wrote:Has anyone entertained the thought of cutting the time it takes to shoot slow fire in half ?   

The NRA "Camp Perry" course has a 5-minute slow fire stage, however, it's fired on a large target and is "not used for classification"

Camp Perry Course (Scores are not used for classification)
Time per 10
Range Type Fire Shot String Strings Target
25 yds Slow 5 minutes 1 B-8
Time per 5
Range Type Fire Shot String Strings Target
25 yds Timed 20 seconds 2 B-8
25 yds Rapid 10 seconds 2 B-8

dannyd93140 wrote:
We were not Sensitive folks, the old guy's back in the 80's were jerks where I was at, but before one of them took the dirt nap he explained why he and buddies were jerks.  New young shooter's had good eyes and steady hands, so those guy's would start loosing matches.  At least he was honest on the way out.

Wow! You've been carrying that around for around 50 years? I'm glad you got that off your chest. I shot matches from 1971 to around 2006 with long gaps due to work or lack of funds. I worked my way through the classes from Marksman to Master without coaching (coaching is a huge advantage, if you can find one). For the most part, other shooters were helpful and friendly. The few who tried to make fun of me only made me more determined to improve. I appreciate those who took on the thankless jobs connected with running matches. Looking back, it was the friends and acquaintances I made that really made the sport special.

BE Mike wrote:

dannyd93140 wrote:
We were not Sensitive folks, the old guy's back in the 80's were jerks where I was at, but before one of them took the dirt nap he explained why he and buddies were jerks.  New young shooter's had good eyes and steady hands, so those guy's would start loosing matches.  At least he was honest on the way out.

Wow! You've been carrying that around for around 50 years? I'm glad you got that off your chest. I shot matches from 1971 to around 2006 with long gaps due to work or lack of funds. I worked my way through the classes from Marksman to Master without coaching (coaching is a huge advantage, if you can find one). For the most part, other shooters were helpful and friendly. The few who tried to make fun of me only made me more determined to improve. I appreciate those who took on the thankless jobs connected with running matches. Looking back, it was the friends and acquaintances I made that really made the sport special.

I have had favorable experiences from the beginning. I do have good friends who were not new to competitive shooting, who experienced a very unfriendly. hostile greeting from seasoned BE shooters at a match. Submitted as info only, as it is not completely uncommon I suppose. To be fair, each discipline probably has the bully competitor too. I have found, by far, most are very helpful to others.

Allgoodhits wrote:

BE Mike wrote:

dannyd93140 wrote:
We were not Sensitive folks, the old guy's back in the 80's were jerks where I was at, but before one of them took the dirt nap he explained why he and buddies were jerks.  New young shooter's had good eyes and steady hands, so those guy's would start loosing matches.  At least he was honest on the way out.

Wow! You've been carrying that around for around 50 years? I'm glad you got that off your chest. I shot matches from 1971 to around 2006 with long gaps due to work or lack of funds. I worked my way through the classes from Marksman to Master without coaching (coaching is a huge advantage, if you can find one). For the most part, other shooters were helpful and friendly. The few who tried to make fun of me only made me more determined to improve. I appreciate those who took on the thankless jobs connected with running matches. Looking back, it was the friends and acquaintances I made that really made the sport special.

I have had favorable experiences from the beginning. I do have good friends who were not new to competitive shooting, who experienced a very unfriendly. hostile greeting from seasoned BE shooters at a match. Submitted as info only, as it is not completely uncommon I suppose. To be fair, each discipline probably has the bully competitor too. I have found, by far, most are very helpful to others.

Only one shooter around here was ever a jerk to me and I did consider leaving mid match. Coincidentally I think it was at Oak Harbor. However he was the sole exception. Everyone else has been a big help.

BE Mike wrote:

dannyd93140 wrote:
We were not Sensitive folks, the old guy's back in the 80's were jerks where I was at, but before one of them took the dirt nap he explained why he and buddies were jerks.  New young shooter's had good eyes and steady hands, so those guy's would start loosing matches.  At least he was honest on the way out.

Wow! You've been carrying that around for around 50 years? I'm glad you got that off your chest. I shot matches from 1971 to around 2006 with long gaps due to work or lack of funds. I worked my way through the classes from Marksman to Master without coaching (coaching is a huge advantage, if you can find one). For the most part, other shooters were helpful and friendly. The few who tried to make fun of me only made me more determined to improve. I appreciate those who took on the thankless jobs connected with running matches. Looking back, it was the friends and acquaintances I made that really made the sport special.

I watch from a distance and it still goes on today, they do it a new shooter without even realizing it.

The problems with “jerks” has to be regional. From the second I was brand new onward, bullseye matches here in NC have been nothing but friendly. Folks have been helpful and friendly, offering loaner equipment, offering powder and primers when they were hard to find, and generally cheering everyone on when they are having good days.

JRV wrote:The problems with “jerks” has to be regional.  From the second I was brand new onward, bullseye matches here in NC have been nothing but friendly.  Folks have been helpful and friendly, offering loaner equipment, offering powder and primers when they were hard to find, and generally cheering everyone on when they are having good days.

And they should be, but when I started shootings revolvers in the late 1960's as a teenager Bullseye shooter's ruled and didn't really care if new people came or not.  Now because they are disappearing, they have definitely becoming more welcoming.

Oak Harbor!!

I started BE on this range. A co-worker invited me and i shot at on the range's opening. The range was the vision of Miles Kline. He got a lot of help, primarily from his bro-in-law Fred Nehls. Thet opening was a Frii .evening in 1967. The 1st match was a registered 1500. 90-30-30. Several "old guys" from Adams Cons Club (Toledo OH) showed up w/ Clarks!@!@#. I was hooked. We switched to 1800's and later 2700's. Miles was our only experienced /classified shooter and threw us into the water running the line etc. 

Miles said I will have the range open Every Fri Eve. He was so the rest of us new guys could depend on it. That dedication & amd dependability was essential. Early on there was more help than "customers". It took several yrs but during the good times the line was nearly full every match. This led to the 50 yd range which was used in a match for the 1st time in April of 2001. I left for FL in '03 taking w/me lots of good memories!

There were a lot of hard times especially in the early yrs. Plenty of political battles until the BE guys became numerous enough and had enough dedication to run fundraisers and dominate the club. I understand the range is no longer reserved for BE. A very bad indication. If I had to choose the most important component to our program it was "owning" one set day & and time. Probably the largest setback was the ageing of our shooters and the inability to replace them.

Good luck John!

Ron Habegger