How can this be EIC legal???
+15
randy86314
lonegunman
mbmshooter
PacFltShooter
8eightring
Rodger Barthlow
WesG
Orion
Wobbley
bruce martindale
Jon Eulette
Merick
KBarth
james r chapman
NukeMMC
19 posters
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How can this be EIC legal???
In the quest for my final 10 Service Pistol leg points (my first 20 were from the early 90s), I decided to chase the rabbit down a hole and bought a 9mm Range Officer.
Then I decided to have it converted to 38super. I shot a 38supercomp Open pistol in USPSA and absolutely loved the reliability of feeding that rimless, long-ish brass in the 1911 platform. Off to Jon Eulette it went. A KKM 0.355" 1:16" twist tube got fitted, trigger job done, slide needed just a smidge of tightening and back it came. A NukeMMC stippling job and it was good to go. Initially I ran it with 115gr HAP bullets and 5.2gr of 231 to loosen it up and have good accuracy at 50yds.
About that time, CMP decided to change rules on me and allow lead bullets. SO I chased that rabbit just a bit deeper ... bought some 125 and 150gr SWCs. Hmmm ... a 0.356" 150gr Brazos SWC with 3.2gr of Titegroup or 3.0gr of Bullseye was quite pleasant in sustained fire. Well shoot ... seems to me 148gr isn't far from 150gr ... and 0.358" isn't far from 0.356". If my Ed Brown magazines release the round late enough to guide into the chamber but soon enough to not be cock-eyed on entry in the chamber, maybe I could use some of these H&G 50 wadcutters I have laying around ...
So a little loading was done. I have 24 loose pieces of Starline 38sc brass. 4 got loaded with 3.0gr of Titegroup. 20 got 2.7gr of Bullseye (gee ... sounds like a 38 special load ).
Cycled them thru the pistol by hand. Since these bullets were designed for semi-auto 38spl shooting, this shouldn't be a surprise. All went thru just fine, so let's give it a go.
Shot them at 25yds today. Here's my 2nd 2 mags of the 2.7gr BE load in a TF cadence. I think if I can get these bullets sized to 0.356" and tune the load a bit, this answers any need to try and fight a 38spl 1911 build and locating the uber-expensive magazines. The Ed Brown 38super mags are $28. This load doesn't quite lock the slide back, but it completely cycles. Another 0.1 or 0.2gr and we're in business.
Does it shoot soft? You tell me ...
https://youtu.be/zVbbf-pu1NE
So now this is a CMP EIC legal service pistol that is essentially a 38spl wadcutter, only 1/8" shorter and significantly less expensive.
Hey Jon ... What do you think about a frame-mounted dot with this setup?
Then I decided to have it converted to 38super. I shot a 38supercomp Open pistol in USPSA and absolutely loved the reliability of feeding that rimless, long-ish brass in the 1911 platform. Off to Jon Eulette it went. A KKM 0.355" 1:16" twist tube got fitted, trigger job done, slide needed just a smidge of tightening and back it came. A NukeMMC stippling job and it was good to go. Initially I ran it with 115gr HAP bullets and 5.2gr of 231 to loosen it up and have good accuracy at 50yds.
About that time, CMP decided to change rules on me and allow lead bullets. SO I chased that rabbit just a bit deeper ... bought some 125 and 150gr SWCs. Hmmm ... a 0.356" 150gr Brazos SWC with 3.2gr of Titegroup or 3.0gr of Bullseye was quite pleasant in sustained fire. Well shoot ... seems to me 148gr isn't far from 150gr ... and 0.358" isn't far from 0.356". If my Ed Brown magazines release the round late enough to guide into the chamber but soon enough to not be cock-eyed on entry in the chamber, maybe I could use some of these H&G 50 wadcutters I have laying around ...
So a little loading was done. I have 24 loose pieces of Starline 38sc brass. 4 got loaded with 3.0gr of Titegroup. 20 got 2.7gr of Bullseye (gee ... sounds like a 38 special load ).
Cycled them thru the pistol by hand. Since these bullets were designed for semi-auto 38spl shooting, this shouldn't be a surprise. All went thru just fine, so let's give it a go.
Shot them at 25yds today. Here's my 2nd 2 mags of the 2.7gr BE load in a TF cadence. I think if I can get these bullets sized to 0.356" and tune the load a bit, this answers any need to try and fight a 38spl 1911 build and locating the uber-expensive magazines. The Ed Brown 38super mags are $28. This load doesn't quite lock the slide back, but it completely cycles. Another 0.1 or 0.2gr and we're in business.
Does it shoot soft? You tell me ...
https://youtu.be/zVbbf-pu1NE
So now this is a CMP EIC legal service pistol that is essentially a 38spl wadcutter, only 1/8" shorter and significantly less expensive.
Hey Jon ... What do you think about a frame-mounted dot with this setup?
NukeMMC- Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-10-12
SkullAero, shanneba and L. Boscoe like this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Now for a name for this pistol/ammo combo .....
38supercutter?
38superwad?
38superspecial?
38frankensuper?
38NukEulette?
38supercutter?
38superwad?
38superspecial?
38frankensuper?
38NukEulette?
NukeMMC- Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-10-12
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Frame mount dot won’t be legal till 2026.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Hawkja likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
How does it shoot at 50?
KBarth- Posts : 512
Join date : 2017-05-18
Age : 28
Location : Missouri
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Going to find out after I get a tuned and soft load that is accurate enough at 25 with amazing recoil recovery. My 115HAP loads shoot 10 ring at 50 off the bench, so they do better than me.KBarth wrote:How does it shoot at 50?
NukeMMC- Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-10-12
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
james r chapman wrote:Frame mount dot won’t be legal till 2026.
and by then there will be only 3 matches with enough participants to award a hard leg.
Anyhow I've long suspected 38 super could be downloaded to rival 38 special wadcutters if someone took the time to work out all the details.
Merick- Posts : 452
Join date : 2015-08-13
Location : Kansas
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
I’ve built four 38 Supers this year. Very easy to get to shoot jacketed bullets well. I’ve seen a 20 shot group with home cast bullets loaded with 2.8 BE. Held X for 20 shots! You have to have an EXCELLENT lead bullet to group at 50 yds. 2.8 BE 150 lswc kicks slightly harder than 38 Special 148 hbwc. I need to chronograph them side by side.
I’ve enjoyed the 38 Supers so much lately I’m going to rebarrel my 9mm to 38 Super.
Jon
I’ve enjoyed the 38 Supers so much lately I’m going to rebarrel my 9mm to 38 Super.
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
ric1911a1 likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Your factory RO could feed w/c shells….mine did.
They stuck out of a Federal case but worked
They stuck out of a Federal case but worked
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
For a while, I contemplated loading 148 Plated WC bullets in 38 Short Colt for EIC matches. The bullets would have been seated out to regular flush seated WC length so they would have nominally functioned. Never got to it as the rules were never clear that such a load in a 52 would have been legal. Now, I see no reason not to try and this is evidence it can work for the 52.
Wobbley- Admin
- Posts : 4776
Join date : 2015-02-12
ric1911a1 likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
I wouldn’t do it. The short case is approximately 0.390 shorter. Your bullets will lead the front of the chamber during feeding; lead ring. You don’t have a case mouth supporting your bullet, you’ll have bullet lying directly on the chamber/rifling lead.
Might work at 25, but doubtful it’ll hole repair center at 50.
Prove me wrong
Jon
Might work at 25, but doubtful it’ll hole repair center at 50.
Prove me wrong
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
NukeMMC- Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-10-12
SingleActionAndrew likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Jon Eulette wrote:I’ve built four 38 Supers this year. Very easy to get to shoot jacketed bullets well. I’ve seen a 20 shot group with home cast bullets loaded with 2.8 BE. Held X for 20 shots! You have to have an EXCELLENT lead bullet to group at 50 yds. 2.8 BE 150 lswc kicks slightly harder than 38 Special 148 hbwc. I need to chronograph them side by side.
I’ve enjoyed the 38 Supers so much lately I’m going to rebarrel my 9mm to 38 Super.
Jon
Where do you gain shooting a 38 Super vs a 9mm? I don’t know much about 38 Super, but understand the cartage is very similar.
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
I base a lot of my information on 9mm and 38 Super from customer and fellow shooter feedback.
9mm needs new brass to shoot it’s best at 50 yds and typically only jacketed bullets perform really well. 1050 + fps is necessary to group in the 1” range at 50 yds. Lead bullets haven’t shown good results majority of the time. Down loading 9mm to reduced velocities does not perform well at 50.
38 Super does/can shoot well with both lead and jacketed bullets. It also performs well with reduced loads. Really good lead bullets are required to get excellent groups at 50 yds. It can be downloaded to 38 Special wadcutter velocities and shoots excellent.
I think finding excellent lead bullets will be the hardest part, because building a tack driver is the easy part.
Jon
9mm needs new brass to shoot it’s best at 50 yds and typically only jacketed bullets perform really well. 1050 + fps is necessary to group in the 1” range at 50 yds. Lead bullets haven’t shown good results majority of the time. Down loading 9mm to reduced velocities does not perform well at 50.
38 Super does/can shoot well with both lead and jacketed bullets. It also performs well with reduced loads. Really good lead bullets are required to get excellent groups at 50 yds. It can be downloaded to 38 Special wadcutter velocities and shoots excellent.
I think finding excellent lead bullets will be the hardest part, because building a tack driver is the easy part.
Jon
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
Orion, Parkerized and randy86314 like this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
I came to the conclusion, based on what I've read, the 9mm needs a higher pressure load for the short stiff case to expand and seal the chamber well.
38 Super looks like another fun thing to play with.
38 Super looks like another fun thing to play with.
WesG- Posts : 710
Join date : 2018-09-21
Location : Cedar Park, TX - N CA
Parkerized, NukeMMC and PacFltShooter like this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
The 38 Super is more forgiving than the .38 Spl 50yds.
I had Dave Salyer build me one when I couldn't get my Colt 1911 38 wad gun to shoot well at 50yds.
Felt recoil with 147gr SWC was very similar to the M52.
Mine has a slide mount and cycles reliably.
For bullets I cast my own 147gr swc.
I had Dave Salyer build me one when I couldn't get my Colt 1911 38 wad gun to shoot well at 50yds.
Felt recoil with 147gr SWC was very similar to the M52.
Mine has a slide mount and cycles reliably.
For bullets I cast my own 147gr swc.
Rodger Barthlow- Posts : 390
Join date : 2013-08-10
STEVE SAMELAK and randy86314 like this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Those HG 50 wadcutters look like they take up a LOT of space in the 38 Super case. Have you run into any pressure problems using them in 38 Super?
Also, I am wondering what recoil spring weight you are using?
I have a Lyman 38 caliber mold that casts similar bullets. I am just a little intimidated on putting them in a 38 Super case and launching thing them off.
Also, I am wondering what recoil spring weight you are using?
I have a Lyman 38 caliber mold that casts similar bullets. I am just a little intimidated on putting them in a 38 Super case and launching thing them off.
8eightring- Posts : 192
Join date : 2011-06-16
Location : Ohio
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Have you tried any soft swaged 38 full wadcutters in the Super with 2.7 Bullseye?
I am thinking---------
I am thinking---------
8eightring- Posts : 192
Join date : 2011-06-16
Location : Ohio
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me. Thanks for the research.
This is interesting to me. Thanks for the research.
PacFltShooter- Posts : 58
Join date : 2019-03-08
Age : 68
Location : Illinois
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Wobbley wrote:For a while, I contemplated loading 148 Plated WC bullets in 38 Short Colt for EIC matches. The bullets would have been seated out to regular flush seated WC length so they would have nominally functioned. Never got to it as the rules were never clear that such a load in a 52 would have been legal. Now, I see no reason not to try and this is evidence it can work for the 52.
I've had multiple discussions with Henderson over the years about the gradual dilution (in my opinion) of the Distinguished Badge as a result of the many changes to the equipment and ammo. I won't go into the many specifics with which I have issues but, interestingly, the S&W52 was the topic of a recent discussion.
Bottom line: Hendo said the EIC approved pistols MUST be or have been ISSUED FIREARMS by a government agency. Since the 52 has never been an ISSUED pistol, it would not be legal to use for EIC.
Jim also made it clear that it is CMPs desire to make all of these competitions more inviting to ALL shooters so I wouldn't be surprised to see the 52 approved some time in the future. Again, just my opinion!
Mike
mbmshooter- Posts : 249
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Prescott, Arizona
1911186 likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Its legal according to the 26th edition of the rule book. In order to drive up participation, you must remove all of the skill from matches so that any loser can show up with any gun under the sun and still get a participation prize.
I legged 20 years ago, then you could shoot soft ball 9mm or 45 at the short line. There had to be changes since the CMP no longer provided or supplied ammo and that was the change. I had bought a can of 1970's match ball and was using that to leg. I wanted to do it the old fashioned way with a match grade Ed Masaki ball gun and full power ball ammunition. I did it.
The rules specifically say 38 Special/9mm to 45ACP for service revolvers on page 36 section 4.1.3 (b) And 4.1 (b) for Service Pistols 9x19mm or 45 ACP only. Any ammunition is apparently acceptable these days.
I legged 20 years ago, then you could shoot soft ball 9mm or 45 at the short line. There had to be changes since the CMP no longer provided or supplied ammo and that was the change. I had bought a can of 1970's match ball and was using that to leg. I wanted to do it the old fashioned way with a match grade Ed Masaki ball gun and full power ball ammunition. I did it.
The rules specifically say 38 Special/9mm to 45ACP for service revolvers on page 36 section 4.1.3 (b) And 4.1 (b) for Service Pistols 9x19mm or 45 ACP only. Any ammunition is apparently acceptable these days.
lonegunman- Posts : 61
Join date : 2012-04-18
Location : Washington state
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Pretty sure it's 9 or 10# with a 19# mainPacFltShooter wrote:So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me. Thanks for the research.
NukeMMC- Posts : 561
Join date : 2018-10-12
PacFltShooter likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
10#NukeMMC wrote:Pretty sure it's 9 or 10# with a 19# mainPacFltShooter wrote:So NukeMMC, tell another swabby what recoil spring weight you are using.
This is interesting to me. Thanks for the research.
Jon Eulette- Posts : 4399
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia
PacFltShooter likes this post
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
Thanks Jon and NukeMMC. I have a SA Ronin that’s just begging me to make it a 38 Super.
PacFltShooter- Posts : 58
Join date : 2019-03-08
Age : 68
Location : Illinois
Re: How can this be EIC legal???
This should be an easy answer. What is permitted by CMP rules?
Do the rules permit only 9mm para and 45ACP? M1911 and Beretta 92?
The OP is all over the map about cartridges and bullets. IMHO, the problem with the 38 Special in a semi-auto is the BULLET, not the rimmed case. If round nose or JHP bullets fit in the mag and cycles, there's another answer!
The 38 Special WC in a pistol is notoriously sensitive to follow-thru at 50 yards.
If CMP permits any mild cartridge, then the prestige of the Dist badge will be seriously diminished.
Do the rules permit only 9mm para and 45ACP? M1911 and Beretta 92?
The OP is all over the map about cartridges and bullets. IMHO, the problem with the 38 Special in a semi-auto is the BULLET, not the rimmed case. If round nose or JHP bullets fit in the mag and cycles, there's another answer!
The 38 Special WC in a pistol is notoriously sensitive to follow-thru at 50 yards.
If CMP permits any mild cartridge, then the prestige of the Dist badge will be seriously diminished.
randy86314- Posts : 26
Join date : 2019-07-23
Jack H and fc60 like this post
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