45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024

by Chase Turner Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello,

Next year, I'm planning on shooting 45ACP 230 gr ball ammo in CMP EIC matches. I'm well aware that this is not necessary. Additionally, I'm not interested in the "I did this (leg out) when it was harder," discussion, as that is not fruitful.

What I *am* interested in, is the current consensus/fact/opinion on two things:

1) What really counts as "ball ammo" velocity that would have been issued on the line?
2) What sort of velocity is necessary for accuracy at 50 yards?

I've read this thread with data provided by Jack H: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1396-hardball-loads#6974

I've also caught basically the same information/post, though with a little more information/context from the link http://barilin.com/advice/hardball.html using the Wayback machine. I've researched other threads here that may have insight (but sadly cannot find a single test target to look at), but have mostly found discordant views.

It does seem clear that velocity has increased in commercially made 45ACP ball ammo from original introduction of the cartridge (though perhaps that is an artifact of improved chronographs). It also seems to be the case that some of the last stuff issued on the line, TZZ (or IMI, if you prefer) was known to be particularly hot. Of course, lot to lot variance can tell some of the story on perception of how hot some ammo was. So, too, can velocity measurements, as Jack H was kind enough to share, and Julian Hatcher was nice enough to write down (he said 820 fps).

So, let's hear it- what do you know about 45ACP ball ammo velocity that you'd like to share? I'm listening.

Thanks,
Chase

by Ed Hall Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:34 am

TonyH wrote:
shanneba wrote:For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.

I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.
Only $1.46/shot….now that’s hard ball!

Actually, that isn't hardball! It's semi-wadcutter and is confusing in a "hardball" thread.

by TonyH Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:21 am

Ed Hall wrote:
TonyH wrote:
shanneba wrote:For anyone interested in the Federal Gold Medal 185 gr FMJSWC- (GM45B) it looks like Federal actually recently made some.
First time in about 2 years that I have seen it available. $72.99 /50
Maybe some of the ammo sellers will get it soon.

I also noticed Federal introduced Gold Medal 9mm 147 gr and 40 S&W 180 gr.
Only $1.46/shot….now that’s hard ball!
Actually, that isn't hardball! It's semi-wadcutter and is confusing in a "hardball" thread.

Ed, it was a feeble attempt at humor....aimed at the price.

by Ed Hall Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:48 am

I realized that, but I was also pointing out that it wasn't for ball ammo in a ball thread, which is why I quoted the entire post instead of parts.

The pricing is probably not that far off for SWC Match Federal, taking into account how worthless the dollar has become and the fact that it was already around half that price before the dry spell. I think Ball ammo has regularly been less expensive, but I really haven't followed the pricing in quite a while.

by **Wobbley** Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:31 am

Ball ammo has been less expensive because they make tons of it…. But I ask if it is worth much at all. Much of it is like the old military ball.

by mbmshooter Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:58 pm

Wobbley wrote:Ball ammo has been less expensive because they make tons of it…. But I ask if it is worth much at all. Much of it is like the old military ball.

I agree that there had been huge amounts of BALL ammo made for the military. I believe every point I earned on my journey to Distinguished was shot using MATCH BALL ammo. I'm not sure what determines if ammo is classified as BALL other than it being FMJ and possibly that it is acceptable for military use.
Regardless, whether factory-loaded or reloaded premium components do make a difference. Given the rate of inflation I'm not surprised to see the price of Federal GM45A and B ammo increase from the former $49.95/box to $72.95/box, if you can find it.

Mike

by Chase Turner Tue Nov 21, 2023 3:59 pm

deleted

by **Wobbley** Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:24 pm

Chase
I think I’d look at different makes of 230 JRN bullets. I don’t know which brand you chose, it I know that different makes were better than others. In my guns, I found Sierra and Hornady outperformed Winchester. And, in my guns, Federal Red Box 230 outshot Winchester.

As for your published load results, I’m not sure your powder selection is optimal. With an ES of 110 it indicates that a different powder might be more uniform.

As for “mbmshooter’s” inquiry about how “BALL” and “MATCH” are designated in the olden days, as I understood it, the “Match” was loaded with selected components by the contract holder for 45 ammo at the time. They made a special run of brass to add “MATCH” to the headstamp and put them in special boxes after loading. They had to meet velocity and accuracy limits.

by WesG Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:23 am

I've got roughly a 'metric s' ton' of 230 Sierra's that I can cheerfully use up at any leg match I might attend. They need to go somewhere... more valuable as 'leg meat' than scrap...

by Chase Turner Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:37 am

WesG wrote:I've got roughly a 'metric s' ton' of 230 Sierra's that I can cheerfully use up at any leg match I might attend. They need to go somewhere... more valuable as 'leg meat' than scrap...

Wes,

I've been thinking about what to try next after the self imposed challenge next year, and after chatting with Jon and Jimmy, thought it might be cool to do a review/experimentation on 230 JRN bullets that were loaded to softball or below levels. People probably have closets full of 230 bullets that they don't want to shoot up because they have the good sense to not rattle their own teeth. So, let's find a way to shoot them up that is 1) reasonably accurate for slow speeds and 2) has minimal recoil.

Jon's loads, listed in this thread, were not bad (3.8/4.0 BE) in the slightest. I put them together in a hurry so that we could see an initial test- mixed brass and Montana Gold 230 bullets. Jimmy gave me some 230 Hornady that he loaded up with 4.0 of WST, and they were also OK. I couldn't get the Sierra's to shoot in this particular barrel with BE86 or Titegroup, though they did like another barrel (both Kart). Additionally, work is still ongoing to firm up the mount for the test fixture, so that adds a little uncertainty to what test results have been produced to present, though I'm sure the trends seen are representative of what can be achieved.

I've been told that in the period between when ammo was issued on the line and the move to 185s, some of the military teams were shooting very downloaded ammo. No idea if that's true, so file that one under scuttlebutt.

Anyway, food for thought. Shoot'em if you got'em!

-Chase

by bruce martindale Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:33 am

Don’t be fooled by statistically insignificant testing….math guys, of which I am not one, will tell you that a number of 10 shot tests are needed to validate the conclusion. I hate wasting a lot of ammo on testing when my improvements come from shooting. Thanks for doing this, but do repeat the original tests that looked so good. Now as o the Atl Arms, no repeat necessary

by chiz1180 Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:00 am

bruce martindale wrote:Don’t be fooled by statistically insignificant testing….math guys, of which I am not one, will tell you that a number of 10 shot tests are needed to validate the conclusion. I hate wasting a lot of ammo on testing when my improvements come from shooting. Thanks for doing this, but do repeat the original tests that looked so good. Now as o the Atl Arms, no repeat necessary

"In God we trust, all others verify"

With the initial stated goal, the testing being done makes sense. This is especially true as lots of anecdotal evidence has been stated over the years on this subject. Testing like this is not wasting ammo, it is providing a base for future success, it is a vital part of any successful shooting program.

by Rush223 Wed Nov 22, 2023 1:04 pm

After reading this I have an idea.
Have 5-6 of your friends load 35 rounds of 230 ball at your specified velocity with whatever bullets and powder they have and issue it to you at the EIC matches. Make it more like “the good old days”.

I’ll be the one on the line shooting 5s and 6s with pipsqueak 9mm loads carefully zeroed in my gun.

Rush

by **Wobbley** Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:15 pm

Chase

I just loaded up some 230 Cast LRN with some “powder puff” loads for testing. The powders are 3.5, 4.0 BE and 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 Titegroup. I’ll certainly share any data generated. According to a cursory map of the data, it appears that the “magic sauce” to duplicate the impulse of the 200 SWC “bullseye load” is a velocity of 675 fps. This seems to be attainable with charges of 3.6 to 3.8 grains of TiteGroup, Bullseye, or WST. My focus for powder is Titegroup because it’s not my main selection for bullseye but it seems suitable.

by **Wobbley** Sat Dec 02, 2023 5:34 pm

An update, this was the first time I’ve had to test these “powder puff” loads with 230 Cast LRN. No velocity, just function but I did shoot them offhand. 3.6 Bullseye, 3.6 Titegroup, and 3.8 Titegroup had 100% function. The target results are decent, and some most were on call. Of the three, 3.8 Titegroup might be a bit better but a proper evaluation would be required. So for those wanting to play with 230 LRN bullets for training and match shooting, try these powder puff loads.

by Chase Turner Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:13 pm

deleted

by Skid Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:16 pm

Good for you Chase !

by Chase Turner Mon May 06, 2024 4:21 pm

deleted

by **Wobbley** Mon May 06, 2024 4:31 pm

Congrats Chase and Jason! Well deserved!

As for my 230 Cast loads for training, I took this months training session to see how well these things could do. Here’s a 50 shot target shot while my arm was rested….(I was looking to see if I had a trigger control issue). So download them and use ‘em up! Perfect for training and small matches.

45ACP Hardball Challenge 2024 - Page 3 Img_0418

by mbmshooter Wed May 08, 2024 1:32 pm

Chase,

From those test targets you provided it appears those WW230gr FMJ bullets are printing groups almost identical to
the Atlanta Arms ammo. That should give you the confidence to shoot OUTSTANDING targets.
Those SF, TF and RF score you posted look very familiar. RF was, and apparently still is, the downfall for many
folks shooting the 230gr FMJ ammo for service pistol. It also tells you exactly where you need the most practice!
You are a very motivated person who has chosen to challenge himself to master what earning that Distinguished
Badge was like for so many years before CMP decided to make the Rules "more inclusive".
I have no doubt you will achieve you goal!

Mike

by Chase Turner Wed May 08, 2024 8:11 pm

Mike,

Yes, I agree on the RF practice. Grabbed a couple boxes and shot RF this afternoon after work.

Something that I've noticed for 99% of my service pistol matches is that I'm under cover. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the cover, but depending on the range and the sun location, you can definitely get challenged to see irons clearly. Perry of course is a different beast, and I actually prefer the conditions there- I can see the irons without much thought at all.

Another thing I've noticed in training for this is the remarkable difference in cadence for RF in my SP vs. wad gun. Because the SP recoils more, it does stack up a few tenths of a second to the total time you are recovering from each shot. The first shot becomes the most crucial, esp. if you want to take a half second to steady yourself before shipping the next round. It really depends on how you prefer your sight picture and what you are willing to accept that will also add time to your process; I think I've gotten lazy and need to work on getting this sorted before Perry.

RF is really about cadence and shooting from the shoulder, or at least, that's what I put in my notes this evening.

Not worried about equipment- it's solid! I'm almost out of the 1K Montana Gold that Rod (thank you!) sold me that I've used up in indoor practice(20YD)/testing (850/150) and am getting into the WW230 for outdoor practice and take me out the rest of the season.

Not sure if I am going to be able to hit another SP match before Perry- USAS Nationals down at Ft. Moore for AP sure sounds like a lot of (air conditioned) fun!

Best,
Chase

by mbmshooter Thu May 09, 2024 12:49 pm

Chase Turner wrote:Mike,

Yes, I agree on the RF practice. Grabbed a couple boxes and shot RF this afternoon after work.

Something that I've noticed for 99% of my service pistol matches is that I'm under cover. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the cover, but depending on the range and the sun location, you can definitely get challenged to see irons clearly. Perry of course is a different beast, and I actually prefer the conditions there- I can see the irons without much thought at all.

Another thing I've noticed in training for this is the remarkable difference in cadence for RF in my SP vs. wad gun. Because the SP recoils more, it does stack up a few tenths of a second to the total time you are recovering from each shot. The first shot becomes the most crucial, esp. if you want to take a half second to steady yourself before shipping the next round. It really depends on how you prefer your sight picture and what you are willing to accept that will also add time to your process; I think I've gotten lazy and need to work on getting this sorted before Perry.

RF is really about cadence and shooting from the shoulder, or at least, that's what I put in my notes this evening.

Not worried about equipment- it's solid! I'm almost out of the 1K Montana Gold that Rod (thank you!) sold me that I've used up in indoor practice(20YD)/testing (850/150) and am getting into the WW230 for outdoor practice and take me out the rest of the season.

Not sure if I am going to be able to hit another SP match before Perry- USAS Nationals down at Ft. Moore for AP sure sounds like a lot of (air conditioned) fun!

Best,
Chase

Chase,

I agree that the lighting conditions at Perry are challenging although the P100 and NTI are shot early when the sun is at about 3 o'clock on your sights.
By the time NTT rolls around the sun is at 6 o'clock on your sights. It would be good to practice without overhead cover so you can also get a good handle on your sight adjustments as the sun moves.
Those WW230s have proven to be very accurate from your pistol. You might consider finding some "blasting" bullets/ammo for the express purpose of practicing your RF without wasting the "good stuff".
"AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL"

Mike

by valbern67 Sun May 19, 2024 2:32 pm

So.... a few weekends ago I went to Wichita Falls to shoot the TSRA Outdoor Precision Pistol Championship. They ran all the EIC matches, and just for giggles, I decided to shoot the Service Pistol Match with 230gr ball ammo.

It was snappy for sure, but I managed a decent 256-2X.

FWIW,

Val
alien

by Chase Turner Mon May 20, 2024 6:39 am

deleted

by Chase Turner Fri Jul 19, 2024 7:08 pm

Good evening,

A small update.

First, I'd like to thank everyone who has helped in this project. I've had people come up to me at various events and want to do nothing but talk about "the old days," and I'm always hoping to learn something new from their experiences that they are so kind to share. Also need to thank everyone who has helped to supply me with the needed gear to be "period correct"- Rod, Mike, Jim, Luis, Jimmy, and I'm sure I'm leaving out some people for which I apologize (accidently deleted my message history, which was how I tracked this). Thank you all- if I can help you in one of your quests, please reach out.

Sadly, COVID got me on the Saturday before departing on Sunday for Nationals. Thankfully, I put together what was happening, tested myself, and prevented getting a teammate that I was going to carpool with sick, and certainly other teammates and other competitors as well. As you can imagine, this was not an easy decision; not because it was a difficult calculation on what to do, but because like all decisions that are good, it was painful to accept the outcome. Having put in a lot of time on this project, I couldn't believe I was letting this go. However, the alternative choice would have been selfish and stupid, and that's just not me.

Not exactly sure how I want to put a bow on this project in light of this. Please stay tuned.

Still have a few EIC matches to go this season, and I look forward to them. Trust everyone will shoot well in the morning and I hope you put them in the middle.

-Chase

by chiz1180 Sun Jul 21, 2024 10:04 pm

I got wrangled into shooing teams, so I shot EIC guns during teams. For the 45 match, I went to champions choice on vendor row grabbed a box of Federal American Eagle 230gr ball and shot the match. Didn’t zero the gun, didn’t even see if the ammo would function the gun, just shot. It honestly wasn’t bad at all compared to the lore regarding ball. Recoil was very manageable, my arm did not fall off, and had no difficulty in rapid getting all my shots off. The ammo didn’t seem to group as well as the 185 loads that I shoot, but I the 230 ball I shot was not match quality. That said I don’t think 230 has any major disadvantage if your gun is set up for it and you train with it.

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